Scarlet Kinney & The Standing Bear Center For Shamanic Studies

[debbieredbear]

Scarlet,
Not ALL tribes hold the "Great Bear Spirit" sacred. Stop stereotyping. Stop passing on bullshit as fact.

[weheli]

Scarlet,
Once again YOU have not read what Al said. He was asking a Question.

I am very aware of all you are teaching, I am a Cherokee woman, and all this rage you hold within yourself will eat you up like cancer! You need a balance check, male and female balance. You are very one sided.

All these things you are teaching is NOT American Indian. Your rites of passage,puberty, is WAY out there, lets not forget when puberty begins. For women it can be at a very young age and I KNOW what you do in these workshops.

So why the rage?
                                                                 Weheli

[snorks]

Question: I have read her site.  Does she claim Indian teachings of things?  I can't seem to find that.  Maybe I am dense.

Is core shamanism or New Age shamanism (which what I consider her stuff) to be suspect as well?  Perhaps, I don't know my definitions of what is what.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Question: I have read her site.  Does she claim Indian teachings of things?

Read the rest of this thread, plus one or two others in which she features, if you want to know why she's listed here.

Is core shamanism or New Age shamanism (which what I consider her stuff) to be suspect as well?

Yes, inasfar as it sells imaginary and meaningless 'Nativeness' to gullible people, often on the back a self-interpreted 'vision' or spurious authorisation from a pseudo-elder, all in the face of Native objections. Kinney's a good example of all that.

[snorks]

Thanks.  I have read the thread but had thought the website was non-Indianized.  However, now that you explain about the new age shamanism being clothed in 'Native' stuff, it makes sense to me.  

I guess she is not claiming to have made up this stuff herself because it is what she has experienced.  But instead is saying it is based in some elusive 'native' teaching.

[Le_Weaponnier]

As another guide to the Frauds:
 Any place that calls itself a school for "Shamanic Studies" is automatically a fraud.
 I have seen several on the Net:

"The Institute for Shamanic Studies"
http://www.icss.org/

The Foundation of Shamanic Studies"
http://www.shamanism.org/

FoxFire Institute of Shamanic Studies
http://www.shamanism.info/

Scandinavian Center For  Shamanic Studies
http://www.shamanism.dk/

All Frauds...
And that only took a few seconds of searching.

[Moma_porcupine]

Quote Slow_Thunder

I suggest that you take the time to read what Medicine Chief Weylin LightEagle, a fully apprenticed ? Bear Medicine Man, has to say on the subject, which is posted on my web site, and that you take it to heart. He is right.

OK , I did read this , but I am not so quick to take it to heart .

I know next to nothing about Cherokee culture and traditions , but being blessed with a brain that sometimes works , a few questions seem obvious .

Who is this guy ?

Does the Cherokee Nation have a person who holds the postion and title "Medicine Chief"?

If so , does this guy really serve the Cherokee people , as a Medicine Chief? Do the Cherokee people recognize him as such , and who exactly bestowed this title upon him ?

He says he lives in Florida , and as far as I know there is no Cherokee tribe in that area . This letter you refer to ? mentions about 8 Indians living in his area who only occaisonally attend his ceremonies ? . ? As I understand it , in order to be a Chief, you have to be serving a tribe , and there does not appear to be one ? .

Of course , as I say , I know next to nothing about Cherokee traditions and maybe it is the Cherokee way to have their Medicine Chiefs hundreds of miles from the Cherokee community . Hopefully some Cherokee people can clarify this .

Your apparent eagerness to wholeheartedly accept this letter of endorsement , is a good example of some very common problems ? .

I mean REALLY ...

If you were a devoted Catholic , and you got a letter from a woman claiming to be a Roman Catholic minister , and the letter went on to say because the modren world was overcrowded abortion was OK , ? would you accept this persons opinon as "right " ?

I think you would KNOW enough to wonder who this person was , and question their claim to to be a spokesperson for the Catholic Church .

If you are an American , and you got a letter from someone claiming to be 1/2 American , and the Mayor of Ohio State , you would KNOW enough about American culture , to right away wonder who this person was . Even if they really were 1/2 American , you would still wonder .

If this person then expressed the opinion , that they had a right to commercially develop the National Parks , and pointed out that many American people could economically benifit from this commercial development , and employment could ? be created in poor areas that would provide food for the hungry , and housing for the poor , ? if you are an American , you would KNOW there was other important values that would be lost if these National Parks were opened to resource extraction and commercial develpoment . ? You would also KNOW that even the elected president of the country has no right, as an individual , ? to decide to do this .

That you are so quick to assume that one guys opinion is "right , just because he appears to be a real "Indian" , with impresive sounding credentials (I mean impresive sounding to you ) ? , is probably just more evidence that you have exceedingly little understanding of real Native American culture , traditions , and issues .

It seems this ignorance is a really common problem , that makes a lot of non native people vunerable to misunderstanding what sort of people they are dealing with .

I also found the letter you asked people to read interesting , as it is such a great example of the rationalizations people use to justify commercializing collectively owned Spiritual traditions .

He makes a comment about "a couple of older high ranking or co-founding AIM members who also wrote books and made money off them and then spent all their profits on themselves and are now holed up inside of whiskey bottles, getting drunk most of the time?"

I think it is important to realize that it is traditional Elders who object to commercializing Spiritual traditions . While AIM has taken on the job of being spokespersons for some of these Elders , individuals who are involved in AIM are not necessarily traditional Spiritual Elders , or Spiritual role models.

Attempting to justify commercializing Spiritual traditions by pointing out the personal shortcomings of some individuals involved in AIM ,is like saying the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" , is not a good guideline anymore, because some Christian politicians support the war in Iraq .

I just see statements like this as evidence of ignorance. Like vaugly knowing there is a forest, but not knowing enough to identify poison ivy from an edible plant .

And then there is the excuse ," I work so hard to help people , people do not donate enough , I need to make a living , so I have to charge ." ?  

Because I have heard this so often ,I ? am starting a new thread here to discuss the possible merits of this argument , which you can get to through the link below . ?

http://www.newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151516900 ?  ?

HOWEVER , any sympathy I may feel towards overworked Medicine people quickly evaporates , when I see them ADVERTISING for more work .

As appears this guy you are using as a supporter , is doing , ? on the website, acessible through the below link .

http://www.shamanlinks.net/Teacher_Links.htm

If people justify charging , by claiming they do not have the energy to do the work the right way, advertising for more work , seems very hypocritical .

[educatedindian]

I'm glad Ms. Kinney came back, because 1) frauds always hang themselves with their own words and 2) she keeps showing everyone just how ignorant and mentally unbalanced she is. Someone would have to be extremely desperate or deluded to imagine her to be capable of teaching anyone anything, except what to avoid by her example.

But first, I want to point out to her that the information aobut her Fraudulent "ceremony" was *sent* to us by someone on her own mailing list.

Yes Ms. Kinney, the very people you try to fleece are often too wise to fall for you.

Let's take a look at her latest unintentional bit of comedy.

"You have gone way over the top this time, Al, in terms of slanderous remarks about the puberty ceremony I offer"

Showing yet again she knows as little about the law as she does about Native cultures.
It's not "slander" if it's true. That's black letter law.

"I offer a puberty ceremony for WOMEN of all ages"

Can't you even read what you wrote? You said for young CHILDREN of all ages, more of that inner child nonsense.

"not for children, fool."

  Is she offering us her best Mr T impression? ?
 
"As for why I do so, it's none of your business, as you're a male,"

Ah yes. Ms. Kinney and her pseudo feminism again, mistaking being a Female Chauvinist Pig for being matriarchal.

"and thus are excluded from participating in and not allowed to even have any opinion about such women's ways..."

Showing yet again she doesn't know squat about Native women's roles.

"unless or until you show proper respect and ask in the right way to learn them."

Why would I want to learn from a FRAUD?

"If you grew up in a matriarchal culture as you claim"

Showing her ignorance of Native cultures yet again. Matriarchal and patriarchal are terms for Western cultures. Native gender roles are COMPLEMENTARY, for the most part. We don't glorify one gender's control over the other.

"so I can only conclude that your remarks are not simply misguided, but racist as well."

  ROFLMAO!!!

Let me get your anti-logic straight: Because a dark skinned male won't bow down before a white female fraud, I'm "racist"?

How racist can you get that she demands Natives should practically Worship her?
 
"you are also demonstrating an arrogant disrespect towards two things that all Native American cultures hold sacred: Mother Earth, and the Great Bear Spirit."

  Ms. Kinney, did it ever occur to you many Natives *Never Lived Near Bears*?
Are you going to tell us tribes in the Amazon or the desert held sacred an animal they never even saw?
Thanks for the belly laughs!
Like Debbie pointed out, you are stereotyping like the racist you are.

"In attacking and slandering me personally on your web site,"

Oh brother, if you want to constantly whine about "slander", let's see you back it up!

Take me to court! Please! I'd love the chance to show in a court of law you are a Fraud, Fraud, Fraud.

"you are in fact also attacking and slandering Mother Earth herself, because like all women of all races, I am a physical manifestation of Mother Earth and as such deserve to be shown the same level of respect"

Being a women doesn't give you a pass on getting away with fraud.

"any conscious Native American would show Her."

I'm not conscious? Well, your nonsense does get boring enough to put me to sleep...
 ?
"In attacking my work and labeling it as fraudulent, you are in fact also attacking and labeling the Great Bear Spirit, who chose to call and train me to do this work, as fraudulent."

It wasn't any bear spirit that "called" you, it was your Self Delusion.

"such behavior is not only reckless and ill-considered; it is also grotesquely disrespectful of the very traditions you claim you are trying to protect."

You don't have squat to do with Native traditions, as we've all shown you repeatedly. ?
 
"I suggest that you take the time to read what Medicine Chief Weylin LightEagle, a fully apprenticed Bear Medicine Man"

Fully apprenticed? Then the guy is still in training!
No, wait, more likely it means he paid some fraud for a "franchise" to be a fraud himself.

"has to say on the subject, which is posted on my web site, www.thestandingbear.com, and that you take it to heart. He is right."

His message is one of the least impressive I've ever read. A lot of whining, some ignorance in defending frauds like Brooke Edwards and Maria Naylin, not much else outside of his throwing up the racist stereotype of drunken NDNs. I'm not impressed by self hating types like him (assuming he actually is NDN, which is questionable.)

"who are struggling in poverty to keep, honor and offer to others the sacred spiritual teachings and ceremonies of your cultures, which are fast disappearing from the Earth"

There it is, MORE racism from you, the old Vanishing NDN stereotype.

A racist like you should be deeply ashamed. So should an ALLEGED NDN like Weylin, who seems to have a lot of self hatred, and more than a few screws loose. Don't believe me? See the thread on him.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Is she offering us her best Mr T impression?

"I ain't gettin' on no plane, fool! I'll get there by shamanic journey!"
"Sure, Scarlet. Here, drink this milk."

[Moma_porcupine]

Reading what was written about a puberty ceremony for women of all ages , I did feel concerned that this would include children / woman / girls , as puberty usually occurs around the age of 9 to 13 , and so is something that happens to children . Anyone reading about a puberty ceremony , would reasonably expect this would involve children .

HOWEVER , New Age often has little to do with reality !

Reading through everything I can find that Scarlet wrote advertising this puberty ceremony including cached pages on Google , I do not see anything that actually says this puberty ceremony is for young children of all ages .

What I do see , is that it is for women of all ages , with lots of referance to a "little girl" which in New Age speak , can mean ones inner psychological child , and not real children.

I am frequently mistaken , and it may be I am not reading something that is somewhere , but I also have had it happen where I remember what I understood something to say , and not what was actually written . With the
puberty ceremonies for women of all ages , and frequent mention of "little girls" , it is a bit confusing , if a person is not fluent in New Age speak , but I am fairly certain these "little girls" are imaginary or psychological , and not real young children. ?

I get concerned when words that carry a lot of truth can be dismissed as unfair or incorrect , because one small part of what is being said , is not completely accurate .

I know from past experinece that when people do not want to hear what is being said , they will be quick to use any bit of incorrect information to discredit the truth of everything else that has been said. I do not like to see this happen .

Also I wanted to say that while I do not want to support anyone who imagines they can teach anything "Shamanic" for a fee , I do appreciate it when people make an effort to be honest , and Scarlet does say this puberty ceremony is something made up by her and her associates . I have to give her credit for her honesty in this statement .

[Le_Weaponnier]

I worry when I see references of any sort involving children and sexuality that some pedophile pervert will use it as justification for their behaviour.
That sort of text should not be leaving anything implied. There are too many perves out there to take a chance that even one of them may act out their perversions on a child based on what he reads.

[snorks]

Does this center do a sexual ceremony as opposed to 'confirmation'?  Is that what they mean by 'Rite of Passage'?

[weheli]

Snork,
What is stated is women of all ages, and I really haven't got a clear understanding of what Scarlet means, it has not been clearly explained. I think she said it is ceremonies she came up with? Very vague!!!!

Cherokee do have coming of age but I WILL NOT discuss any of it.
                                                                                        Weheli

[Moma_porcupine]

Hi Le_Weponier

I understand your concern , but this puberty ceremony does not sound anything like the fraudulant Cherokee fire person initiating childern into sexuality at puberty , that you were rightfully so concerned about , before .

Below is a link to the advertisement for this puberty ceremony . I doubt any one could read anything into this that could help them justify any perverted act with a child , although , if this commercial ceremony , did involve children at puberty , in my opinion , it could be seen as exploiting a childs developing sexuality ? . But I do not think it does , because I do not think any real children are involved ? .

How these woman have imagined a connection between a puberty ceremony and adult women somehow connecting with the "inner strong woman" in order to protect the "inner child" , is anyones guess , but , I think (?) , this mental imagery stuff is probably all that is going on .

You can read the advertisement through the link below , and if you read it a couple times , you will probably see what I mean . ?

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:EAn8wIuA78MJ:www.thestandingbear.com/thestandingbearcenter.htm+standing+bear+shamanic+puberty&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&ie=UTF-8

[weheli]

Moma_Porcupine,

I believe you are on the right track. The inner child really came to light during the Dr Bradshaw era. The belief that the wounded inner child, esp. those from sexual abuse, are wounded for life with all types of psyic. disorders. Many dissociate/detach from life. The belief that to go back, using immagery, find the wounded,frightened child, whether boy or girl, reconnect with that part of yourself ,and to begin to mother that wounded part. By so doing you are able to move on by using adult coping skills.

I to believe that by child here ,it does mean inner child.

                                                                                 Weheli