Author Topic: Harjo Wants Law Vs Frauds  (Read 33910 times)

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Harjo Wants Law Vs Frauds
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2006, 05:07:52 pm »
"The Indian is the problem, not the white apartheid attackers?"

If bad tactics are used, they are definitely PART of the problem. Since you bring up apartheid, let me point out that the ANC had a terrible record of lack of succcess as a national liberation movement, taking more than 40 years to succeed where most movements in Africa succeeded in far less time. Pointing that out sure doesn't defend apartheid.

"So far you have only referenced a NAIM press release"

Actually I referenced a long thread with discussion of its validity.

"I challenge you, sir, to show me anywhere that Ward bragged about spitting on anybody.  Or that he even spat on anybody.  So far you have not been able to back up your accusation."

Oh brother. Once again, you make my point for me, insisting that we make HIM the issue rather than any substantial issues.

This is the last time I'll indulge you on this. Then it's up to YOU to do your own research on the man you admire.
www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~53~2716087,00.html

"I have never denied being a rapist.  Does this make me one?"

I have no idea what you were trying to say, and I doubt you do either.  

"What makes it hard for NDN activists, like any other activists, to get things done is white supremacy and US fascism, not those who challenge it."

So we can't disagree among ourselves about the best tactics? Nonsense.  

"When you say "tribal governments" do you mean the BIA or Traditionals?"

Neither. I mean the legal (which is not the same as valid) tribal govts.  

"Can you show me how Ward is complicit in the US government's murder of Indians?"

Try arguing with me about things I actually say, not things you invent me saying.

"Do you think it might be possible that those on the ground here in Denver might just know a WEE bit more about what goes on here than those observing from, like, hundreds of miles away?"

Obviously you've never heard of tunnel vision. What Churchill does and says affects far more than Denver's NDNs.

"are you aware of Churchill's own stated reasons for resigning?"  

A direct quote from his letter of resignation:
"...it is my considered view that the present political climate has rendered me a liability in terms of representing either my department, the college, or the university in this or any other administrative capacity."

In other words, "Them bad guys are to blame for me not being able to do my job." No explanation as to why the same wouldn't be true of his job as professor, and ducking the whole question of whether he's giving encouragement to the ones out to get him and other activist professors.

I see it as lacking the courage of his convictions and throwing his attackers a bone, hoping they'll go away.

"And if lots of professors had been fired by their universities, would you blame Ward or the fascists?"

I thought what I'd said before was clear. I'd blame both.

"Again, my concern is that you are blaming the victim.  Perhaps to save your own job?"

ROFL! Obviously you don't know just how little the State of Texas pays its professors.

If I were more worried about losing my job, would I have signed petitions siding with Churchill?

"Or comfort zone?"

On this point you're partly right, but it goes way beyond "comfort".

His attacks on tribal govts are as wrong as can be. It's essentially an indiscriminate verbal assault on a great many good people (along with far too many bad ones). Which is pretty much typical Churchill.

"Do you feel he was wrong about 9/11 or what?"  

The little Eichmans comment? I know what he was trying to say, that technocrats in the WTC taking part in US empire served the same purpose as Eichman did, but that under US military doctrine, the other victims were "collateral damage". The second part is historically accurate. The first part...a World Bank bureaucrat is not sending people to death camps. Enforcing policies that make it more likely people starve is reprehensible in all kinds of ways, but it's not genocide. It devalues ACTUAL genocide to claim that, and it makes it harder for people to take actual genocide seriously.

Offline Dragonessa

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Re: Harjo Wants Law Vs Frauds
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2006, 06:48:25 pm »
Sorry Dr. Carroll, but the burden of proof is on you to substantiate your accusation that Ward spat on anybody. ? YOU made him the issue when YOU accused him of spitting on an elder. ? Unfortunately, your Denver post link only pulls up today's front page, but I'd be willing to bet my booty that the Denver Post uses NAIM's press release as it's sole source. ? Talk about a circularity of citations! ?

Again, you accused a man of assualt on an elder, so the burden of proof is on you to produce reliable evidence that he did so. ? I am not making Ward the central issue here, but YOUR accusation that he committed wrongdoing. ? Rules of evidence say that the prosecution has to provide evidence of wrongdoing to the jury, and it is never incumbent upon the defendant to go seek out proof of her or his own guilt.

Also, you said he bragged about the spitting incident. ? Where? ? Did he say this himself or are you quoting Bellecourts/NAIM again? A debate on an open forum does not count as hard evidence of anything. ?  ?

And really, does a woman who runs with the likes of the Bellecourts qualify as an elder? ? Elderly perhaps, but elder?

In any event, produce your evidence or drop the smear charges, sir. ? I will debate nothing else with you until you show me that you can use a better class of sources than the Bellecourt/Denver media inquisitors.

And if anyone would like a little more background on CO AIM and the decades-long bad jacketing of Ward Churchill by NAIM and their allies in the Denver media, check out Faith Attaguile's article "There's a Reason Why We Call It Struggle":

http://tinyurl.com/cjwgg
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 am by educatedindian »

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: Harjo Wants Law Vs Frauds
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2006, 07:11:03 pm »
Um, I don't think that, YOU, as a non-Indian have the  SAY on who is and who is not an elder. And you know, you come across as trying to out Indian Al. Plenty of Indians, traditional, non-traditional, activist and non-activist, dislike Churchill. Plenty of Indian people like the Bellecourts. As to your thing on tribal governments, you need to visit reservations and ASK people. Ordinary people, what THEY think of the tribal government. And if you do I have one piece of advise: Close your mouth and LISTEN. Because while you are spouting the revolutiobary party line as told to you by Churchill, you turn off a lot of very traditional people. It may surprise you to know, that in soe places, AIM is not well thought of. This is not a slap at Churchill, it is just my observation, from being around traditional people. Like I said in a previous post, I do nopt know if Churchill is Indian. In fact, I don't care one way or the other. But the way he thinks, is not the way many many Indian people think. He is from the world of scholars and the eductaional system. And most of them are not real in touch with the regular people.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Harjo Wants Law Vs Frauds
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2006, 08:07:23 pm »
More than anything else, it seems to really bug you when NDNs don't live up to your preconceptions of them as somehow natural allies of those who fancy themselves revolutionary leftists.

Sorry, but that just often isn't true. NDNs are pragmatic people, I'd say, and not about to automatically put themselves on the line for those who play at being revolutionary, not without darned good reasons. There may be times when the wishes of NDNs and revolutionaries coincide, such as the Zapatista movement, but that doesn't mean it should always be automatic.

In playing at being revolutionary, you sure seem to have adopted some of those tactics, such as thinking anyone who doesn't agree 100% must be an enemy or an ally of your enemies. ? So here you are accusing me of being one of the Bellecourts' participants in "smearing" Churchill.

And claiming once again that he is not the issue, you spend your whole post defending him. Incidentally, since you didn't answer a single one of my other points, I take it you concede them.

Plus you top it off with a link telling me your side of an issue I clearly already know better than you. Thank you, Oh Great White Revolutionary. Whatever would we poor dumb NDNs do without you?

LIke Debbie pointed out, the Bellecourts are not entirely bad people. They have the support of some very traditional NSNs, and to claim they are on the far right or collaborators is just wrong. After all, the Bellecourts have worked with both the Mohawk and Ojibwe Warrior Societies, every bit as radical as AIM and in many ways more traditionalist.

I also think Debbie has a good point about people in academia often being out of touch with people in the communities. It's something I try very hard to avoid in my own work. In some ways it's easier for me to do that, since St. Phillips' is hardly the Ivy League. (It's a former Freedmen's College.)

It's a point that you might consider yourself. I honestly hope that you don't leave us, just that you listen to us more instead of thinking you know what's best in such a paternalistic way.

BTW, if you'd bother to look into it, you'd have seen the source for the Denver Post was Churchill's own lawyer.

Offline Dragonessa

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Re: Harjo Wants Law Vs Frauds
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2006, 08:17:23 pm »
Sorry folks. ? I don't see any evidence presented for YOUR assertion that Churchill spat on anybody. ? Be glad to discuss everything else with ya'll AFTER you provide more substantiation ? - i.e. eye-witness reports, police reports, newspaper articles, etc from more than just the Bellecourts - who are avowed enemies of Autonomous AIM and widely held to be complicit in the murder of Anna Mae Aquash.

Lots of interesting things to talk about, but you still have not backed up your inital accusation. ? David Lane does not accuse Churchill of spitting on anybody. ? Nor does he concede that Churchill did.

Again. ? Churchill is not the issue. ? YOUR accusation is the issue, as it is one of the key judgements upon which you are basing your assessment of his character. ? Please back up your claim with evidence.

Oh, hey. ? Did you know there is a San Francisco Chronicle article about the entire incident? ? Wonder if it even mentions Churchill... Such a shocking thing this business of spitting, surely that would warrant a newspaper mention? Might even help your case.

Again. ? Love to discuss with you effective tactics and strategies for indigenous and earth liberation, but you must play by fair rules of evidence. ?

And I don't know of any tradition (except maybe neo-nazi) that would consider someone who runs with drug dealers (yes, Clyde was convicted for selling LSD to NDN youth), and smears an innocent person, and is the darling of the racist media in Denver to be a wise elder. ? Nobody has to be American Indian to make that call. ?
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 am by educatedindian »

Offline raven

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Re: Harjo Wants Law Vs Frauds
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2006, 08:37:43 pm »
Wow,    Had to put my shades on. I am dazzled by your brillance Dragonessa!

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: Harjo Wants Law Vs Frauds
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2006, 10:40:35 pm »
Indigenous and earth liberation? Girl, you're on the wrong forum. But if I told you what I do, I am sure it would not be good enough for the likes of the young white saviors of everything. Even so, I wouldn't discuss it with you cause I learned long ago that to fight for Indian rights, it is better to do what ya gotta do and not dicuss the hell out of it.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Harjo Wants Law Vs Frauds
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2006, 08:14:08 pm »
I'm every bit as dazzled as Raven and Debbie...

I truly must've hit a nerve when I pointed out you seem to only want NDNs to play the role that self styled revolutionaries want them to play. No wonder you're so (pardon the bad and unintentional pun) spitting mad.

"I don't see any evidence presented for YOUR assertion"

It's not "mine." And you must be willingly blind.

"...widely held to be complicit in the murder of Anna Mae Aquash."

That's another case with accusations that've gone back and forth endlessly, with both sides using her memory in a pretty low way. Now you go beyond amusing to show a similar lack of character.

"Again. ? Churchill is not the issue. ? YOUR accusation is the issue"

Again, it's not "mine" since even he and his own laywer do not deny it.

"Love to discuss with you effective tactics and strategies for indigenous and earth liberation,"

"Earth liberation"? I'm as amused by the term as Debbie is!

"but you must play by fair rules of evidence."

Y-a-w-n...I'm hardly a court.

Quit blaming me because you're too lazy to read the thread about the incident. ?  

"I don't know of any tradition (except maybe neo-nazi) that would consider someone who runs with drug dealers (yes, Clyde was convicted for selling LSD to NDN youth)"

Obviously you don't know the Mohawk and Ojibwe Warrior Societies.

Or for that matter, many of the original AIM members. AIM was formed in a Minneapolis jail cell, remember? Many of the original AIM people had criminal records.

Do you really expect every NDN elder to have nothing to do with any of the huge numbers of NDNs who have criminal records? Remember that NDNs get imprisoned at much higher rates than Anglos. You're asking elders to cut off contact with people who need their guidance the most.

Come on, would you expect elders to cut off contact with Peltier?

"Nobody has to be American Indian to make that call."

Once again, thank you Oh Wise White Mother, for showing us poor dumb NDNs you know far better than we possibly could. It's really, really mighty white of you.

Offline raven

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Re: Harjo Wants Law Vs Frauds
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2006, 01:30:38 am »
Dragonessa,

I think Al just counted coup on your a**!

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Re: Harjo Wants Law Vs Frauds
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2006, 02:28:04 am »
I have been following this thread from the beginning and it seems that this person is overly defensive of Harjo. Certainly wants to bring others over to her/his way of thinking. NO that won't happen here. This person is apparently Churchill or someone who has been mesmerized by him.

Al your right on the mark, your stance is appreciated.
                                  JA

Offline Dragonessa

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Re: Harjo Wants Law Vs Frauds
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2006, 10:34:33 pm »
Al:

Ya got the evidence yet? ? Nope.

It is a bedrock of human rights law that the accused is innocent until proven guilty. ? Failure to deny guilt is not evidence a person is guilty.

Maybe Al's obsession with loogey-hocking is a non-female thing, but he and all his Twinkie groupies,

The evidence is surely out there....Why is it taking days and days and days for you to deliver?
« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 am by educatedindian »

Offline raven

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Re: Harjo Wants Law Vs Frauds
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2006, 11:22:47 pm »
Dragonessa, I believe you wasted good money taking classes under Churchill.
Instead of trying to argue the fact of spitting, why don't you go into the prison system and argue cases for all those poor innocent souls that were convicted  under circumstanial evidence.
At least you would be a productive human being.

I'm glad you are not in my camp, as loud as your snoring is, you would give our position away to the enemy.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Harjo Wants Law Vs Frauds
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2006, 11:32:46 pm »
This has gotten pretty boring. A thread about an important issue, the use of the law against frauds, has been hijacked almost from the beginning by one Churchill follower's obsessive and increasingly childish behavior.

So as to not reward said childishness, the worst aspects of it were removed, while her essential message was kept.

"Ya got the evidence yet?  Nope."

Like I said before (THREE times) it's up to you to quit being so lazy as to not read a link put right in front of you. Natchat already went into detail about this.

"It is a bedrock of human rights law that the accused is innocent until proven guilty."

For the second time, Oh Dense One, this is not a court.

"Failure to deny guilt is not evidence a person is guilty."

A person's lawyer defending what his client did rather than denying is a pretty clear admission. I won't say "of guilt" because this is not a court.  

"Maybe Al's obsession with loogey-hocking"

MY obession?

ROFLMAO!

You're the one who won't let this go for how many posts now? For how long?

"is a non-female thing"

I suppose that's a pseudo-feminist's way of saying "male"?

"but he and all his Twinkie groupies"

ROFLMAO!

You just can't help but dig yourself in deeper, can you?

Not just by your continued childishness, but also by its laughable falseness. After all, we have on this forum traditional storytellers and a leader from a reserve government, along with many of the better known ANTI Nuage people in NDN Country.
 
"The evidence is surely out there....Why is it taking days and days and days for you to deliver?"

The Natchat link was put in front of you over a week agao. Why are you too lazy to read it?