Pablo Russell

[lene bjergland]

Well Annika, I write you a response to your latest target on this site. I am sad to see, that you seem to be a person that shoots at anybody showing up here, trying to explain their situations.
Even worse that you forget to check up with reality before accusing people for being bad behaving.
As for Stefan, the lates authore being pointed at, I know him quite well. And I know what he stands for and his work. Ta accuse him for selling sundances in Europe is ridiculous and I would laugh if it was not such a serious insult.
I don´t know of any sundances in Europe. And I don´t know anybody that would or could sell one.
You have no succes in your effort making Stefan not trustworthy. Instead it is you now, Annika, with our poisonous aggression that can not be trusted.
Very bad for a website, that could be very useful to many.

[vikinglady]

Lene, I apologize, I mistook his claim of being a Blackfoot Sundancer for selling sundances. My Danish is not that good, sorry. Stefan is ONLY selling sweats in Europe, not sundances.

Annika

[debbieredbear]

I am actually puzzled by the attack on me. I did not post the origional about this, so why am I being attacked. As for accusations that I was speaking of his personal life, all I did there was ask if he was the same one we had discussed before. Annika said no, so that is it. Me thinks that Ulrike is a bit defensive in this area.  Ulrike also owes me an apology for falsely accusing me. But I won't hold me breath waiting for it.

[educatedindian]

I'm glad to see so many of Russell's and Kobler's followers are coming to this site. What is sad to see is how little some of them have learned, outside of the first of them to post, JJ.

Unlike our later "guests" (none of whom seem to even have any basic politeness) JJ was willing to discuss openly, willing to admit he might not know everything, and seemed sincere in his willingness to keep learning.

When Stefan, Ulrike, and Lene get insulting, abusive, hysterical, hypocritical, or try to be deliberately deceptive, I don't get offended by it, even when I am the target of it.

After all, these tactics just make them look extremely bad, not myself or anyone else at NAFPS.

Ulrike's hysterically angry post is both bizarre and hypocritical. First he confused Debbie with myself.

Why? Who knows? Our names and writing styles are nothing alike.

Then he attacked her (thinking she was me) for invading his privacy. ? Why, I don't know.

I went out of my way to find information he and several others had requested. I insured his name was not revealed, but posted his request for information, and the nature of HIS accusations against Pablo Russell.

Then he complained about being "revealed" and did what?

He *posted his full name and phone number* and then *urged people to call him*.

He sure doesn't have much ability to reason. And the way he answered was not only emotional, it was extremely childish. "I don't like what you did, so I'm going to go with those people you don't like."

He claims to be a serious therapist, but no good therapist would do anything like pay money to an unethical exploiter like Russell over a childish fit.

[educatedindian]

Sorry Lene, but it's very obvious that Mr. Kroebler is a liar, a hypocrite, and very unethical himself, upset because he has been caught doing wrong.

There are two possibilities:

1) Pablo Russell is an exploiter doing wrong and Stefan Kroebler is helping him do wrong.

2) Or Pablo Russell is very naive and being badly used by Mr. Kroebler. Thus Kroebler is the main exploiter and ceremony seller.

Kroebler's own words contradict what he claims elsewhere on other sites. What Kroebler and his other German followers naively (and perhaps racistly) assumed was that NDNs would not think to find someone who knew German.

Kroebler said in his post:
"even though I'm still pretty young and don't know too much about all the different Native American ways"

And also:
"I like to say that I think to have a page as this one is a pretty good idea. Since there are for example many sweats in Europe that are run by people that have been reading a few books about natives or have been to some seminares and run sweats all of a sudden without any rights at all."

But on this website:
"Stefan Kobler learned and lived the ceremonies of the ? Indians, until the Indian Charles Chipps allowed him to lead certain ceremonies on his own. Two years ago, the young electronic fitter built his
first sweatlodge. Already at the age of 13, he started reading non-fiction on Indians. Nowadays, he is an Indian expert."
http://www.medienschule.ch/2003/zellweger/banden.doc

And Kroebler is selling sweatlodges all the time, making quite a bit of money it seems. In fact, Kroebler just came back from selling sweatlodges on March 6!

So I will ask you, Lene, and anyone else involved with Pablo Russell or Kroebler...

....does Pablo Russell know his "adoptive brother" selling sweatlodges all over Europe?

And if he does, why doesn't he make Kroebler stop?

www.kvindeguiden.dk

In the ad for sweats, Stefan Kobler is called 'Pablo's adoptive brother'!
(adobtivbror)

www.medicinhjulet.dk/foredrag.htm

Speach (foredrag) on January 6, 2006

On March 4, 2006, there was a sweat 'ledet af Stefan Kobler, Blackfoot
soldanser fra Schweiz' = lead by Stefan K., Blackfoot sundancer from
Switzerland. Pris: kroner 400,-!!!! (approx EUR 50,-)

Shamanistik internat kursus
(Shamanistic internet course)

www.1eren.dk/pablo

[debbieredbear]

One more thing:

Ulrike said "There are no levels of spirituallity and no such thing as: the more sweats you go to and the more seminares you go to the more spirital you get."

This is just flat out bizarre. Sounds like a cult. I have NEVER heard traditional people say that the more sweats you go to the more spiritual you will be. That is because there are varied reasons for a sweat. I think someone is selling something here. And it doesn't smell pretty.

[lene bjergland]

It is amazing ......
If you guys need to point your fingers at somebody, then point it at me!
Point it at us, Danes, Germans, Spaniards, Swiss who invite Pablo and Stefan to come and run sweats for us.
Out of convenience for ourselves we set up a price. We know thhere is no such thing as prices according to Blackfoot traditions, so we are to blame for doing it.
Our guests do not set any price, have none.
This will be my last words. It is not worthwhile.
For all my relations.

[educatedindian]

It truly is amazing Lene. It truly is amazing how little you actually know about Native traditions, and how little ethics your leaders, Kroebler and Russell have.

No actual Native elder or leader of a sweatlodge would EVER PERMIT others to set prices.

And then you try to end things by "talking Indian" or what you think NDNs talk like. But you just sound like Tonto.

You can duck the questions all you want. Everyone here can see your leaders are selling sweatlodges.

If you set the prices, then you are almost as guilty as they are.

[Carla]

helo
this guy p.russell is also a drugabuser
he hit woman many times iam one of them
and still he is traveling in europe and sell sweats.

[Carla]

please dont show my email adress  iam scart.thanx

[Jamie Hume]

I am reading this all with 'great' interest.

I, like JJ, have used my real name. I know both Pablo and JJ. Pablo, especially well.

Some of this is recent news to me and I have a lot of questions. I will speak to Pablo myself when the moment is right.

As far as I know, my ex-husband Morris Crow never charged money for anyone to enter a sweat lodge. Pablo traveled extensively with Morris before he passed away, July 1st, 2006. What Pablo is doing now that Morris has passed, I have been unfamiliar with untill very recently.

Please keep in mind that just because, someone studies with someone with integrity, is absolutely no gaurentee of 'their' integrity in the long term. Do not associate Pablo's community with Pablo's choices. Take this all one individual at a time.

Morris was very ill for some time before he passed and there were many changes in my absense and new people I am still getting to know that are now heavily involved in our ceremonies. However, I do know this, if there is a problem it will be delbt with by the Creator in some form or other.

I am not a leader. I am the mother of the seventeen year old Sundancer that has inherited the leadership of the Sundance Morris Crow lead, cared for and brought to the edge of the Old Man River from South Dakota. I am a pipe carrier with seven years of piercing scars on my arms and hands. I do not take these accusations lightly. If they 'are' true, I consider the implications very serious and appaulogise on my part for all inappropriate actions that have occured associated with our Sundance.

You are in my prayers.

Peace.

[Jamie Hume]

Hi there!

OK, 'some' of the the problem here is that Pablo speaks to people in English whose English is a little shakey! So, some things are being squewed. Very weirdly. Pablo needs to check these written representations of his work. Pablo can best speak for Pablo.

JJ, these terms you are using are new. We never used to use that termonaulogy. I don't know when it sarted or who started it, but I think it is a safe bet that it was a concept thing to get a meaning accross to your group in Europe mixing with your own interpretive experience in trying to grasp things. I am seeing a lot of this going on as people try to communicate. Linguistic and cross cultural challenges are important to face up to, we need to deal with them not run away from them. I know your heart is in what you are saying.

Just to fill in for others, I was married to Morris Crow. I am a non-native Canadian, not a generic white woman, but someone in touch with her roots thanks! Pablo got his authority as a pipe carrier and a sweat lodge keeper from my husband Morris. Morris was authentic! Pablo traveled with Morris throughout Europe, the Middle East, Britain and Australia before he became very ill and passed away July 1st, 2006. Since then I am hearing that there have been changes as Pablo is working on his own for the most part. I don't know exactly what is going on. I am sure hearing a great deal of upset  and serious accusations though!

I know my husband never took a dime for a seat lodge ceremony! Never! There is nothing wrong with be a speaker or lecturer though. There is so much misinformation out there and well no information, that there is a need for authenticity...good people out there doing that trek to inform and educate! I know there are a lot of Mormon missionaries heading accross the ocean that will be telling their version of who First Nations People are to them! Now that is pretty ugly.

Anyway, I am having a hard time reading all this in one sitting. It is upsetting, very upsetting. I am glad to be made aware of it however.

As for Pablos charactor, he is a man. Just a man. He was once a beautiful Sundancer and I remember him in that light as an auntie would. I know he has problems and only he is fit to address those issues...it's between him and the Creator. Pray for him do not idolize him or condem him he is just a human being as are we all...he needs our prayers. He still has many good qualities and really does have legitimate knowledge. I have not seen what he is teaching or been to any of these over seas events or lectures though. I do know he is an excellent speaker however.

In saying that, don't be taken advantage of by anyone! Just because Pablo is an attractive attraction...chuckles...don't let it go to your heads! Rock star issues Pablo? Anyway, people have to navigate and this site is clearly part of that struggle.

Medicine man?!!! I do not know if Pablo has started doctoring people. I know my husband did doctor individuals but he 'never' considered himself a 'medicine man'. People just kept insisting on calling him that, along with calling him a 'Chief'. He was on Chief and Council once though come to think of it. LOL!

Look, this is the thing...people can be naive, people can get carried away with themselves, it is not a happy combination. It can get better though. We can all learn. It is not about distruction, it is about rebirth and personal journey. Virgins have no wealth of wisdom fo they? We all have to learn from thiese experiences.

My concern is people that may have been hurt if there has been exploitation or wrong doing. The possible misconceptions are terrifying!Things must come right again some how. We are looking at a new genertion, a transitional period. I want Pablo to speak to this himself. I want to hear what he has to say. Really!

Peace.

[frederica]

All you have to do is Google his name and he get his upcoming schedule for European Tours. Here is one all Nuage, no sweats in this one. http://www.veletrhesoterika.cz/main.php?pageid=3298 Sapa right they probably as you say precieve him as a "rock star",  and he seems to be buying into every bit of this.

[earthw7]

WOW!

I am a pipe carrier with seven years of piercing scars on my arms and hands. I do not take these accusations lightly. If they 'are' true, I consider the implications very serious and appaulogise on my part for all inappropriate actions that have occured associated with our Sundance.

This is why I OBJECT TO OUR PEOPLE MARRYING NON NATIVE
THEY HAVE NO RESPECT FOR OUR TRADITIONS.
Any real indian person would never make these kind of bragging, demeaning statements.

What are the Native people doing in Europe when there own people need help?

[ironbuffalo]

WOW!

I am a pipe carrier with seven years of piercing scars on my arms and hands. I do not take these accusations lightly. If they 'are' true, I consider the implications very serious and appaulogise on my part for all inappropriate actions that have occured associated with our Sundance.

This is why I OBJECT TO OUR PEOPLE MARRYING NON NATIVE
THEY HAVE NO RESPECT FOR OUR TRADITIONS.
Any real indian person would never make these kind of bragging, demeaning statements.

What are the Native people doing in Europe when there own people need help?

 You hit the nail right on the head.