David Hobgood AKA David Spellsinger AKA Sifu David

[TooManyBooks]

I looked through prior posts in this forum, but didn't see this man's name anywhere.  This is my first post, so I hope I'm doing this right.

Located in Whiting, Indiana, the man's name is David Spellsinger and he claims to be the 'Grandson of Irish-Cherokee medicine woman Maggie Running-Fox and Cherokee Shaman Frank Fishing Bear. I was initated as a Cherokee Shaman at age 7. I have been a professional reader of rare Cherokee spirit stones for 34 years'. 
 
Contact information:
 
Location:  Temple for the Arts of Wisdom
Street:  2026 Davidson Place
City/State/Zip: Whiting, IN 46394
Phone:  219-659-0639

He also claims to be a Druid and a Daoist initiate.  More information can be found here:

http://www.witchvox.com/vn/vn_detail/dt_cl.html?a=usin&id=5679

http://profiles.yahoo.com/dspellsinger


According to the link here: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dreamworld/7351/pie/

--he has been active in the general area since 1994 ("Pagan Unity Night: Held on the Full Moon of March 24th, 1994. Led by David Spellsinger, with participants from six separate groups who actively showcased there own personal rituals for the whole of the community, was considered inspirational in bringing an environment that would lead to many more public rituals in the years to come.")

And according to this: (http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian/1998/July/0798-08b.htm), he does indeed charge for 'readings':

PSYCHIC FAIR - FREE ADMISSION- Saturday & Sunday 10AM-6PM
Free crystal with reading
Free hourly lectures
Free door prize entry

Featuring:

David Spellsinger - Cherokee Spirit Reading, Runes & Tarot

Readings are $20 for 15 minutes and $35 for a half hour.

--------------------------------------

I have no way of knowing if the people he claims to be his grandparents/teachers are authentic or can be verified, but I thought at least you might want the information.  I have seen the man at numerous local pagan gatherings and while appearances can certainly be deceiving, he doesn't appear to have any legitimate Native American or Cherokee connections (forgive me if that line sounds racist; I can't think of a more tactful way to phrase the fact that he is a tall, skinny, middle-aged white man milking naive local people out of their money with supposed 'Cherokee wisdom').

I should state that I understand there are pagans on this forum; I'm one myself, so I'm not anti-pagan.  But I think pagans in general can do just fine spiritually with the beliefs of their own ancestors rather than stealing the beliefs, faith, and practices of another set of cultures that they have no authentic or legitimate link to.


Finally...as I said, I'm new to this.  If it turns out this man is legitimate and does indeed have the connections he claims to, and they're valid, I apologize in advance.  It simply sounds very fishy to me.

[raven]

Hi Too Many,

I crossed paths with David several years back. I was with a young friend that wanted to go to a new age shop near her home in the Chicago suburbs. When we walked into the shop there appeared to be some activities going on. I did not know at the time what a psychic fair was.
David Spellsinger was there with a group of other people doing readings.
When I saw the poster stating he was Cherokee I had to sit for a reading. But when I refused to pay for it, the people running the fair insisted I couldn't have a reading until I paid the 35.00 So the young friend paid for it.
When I sat across the table from him, he pulled out a bag of multi colored stones.  He asked me to take each stone and place them on the table wherever I wanted to. I placed all them together in a pile on the table. He looked at me funny, and then began to pick each one up from the pile and explain to me what each one meant, he asked me frequently if we had ever met, I replied no, I had never layed eyes on him until that moment. But he insisted that we had met before.
I did ask him where he learned his trade, he did tell me through his grandparents. I did ask him if they were witches. Then he wanted to know why I would ask him that. I explained I had never seen what he was doing, I had only seen 2 stones used but I did not tell him why or by who.
He was very nervous while I sat there, and the reading was very short. When I stood up he asked me why I placed the stones all together in a pile. I told him because it was my way of telling him his readings were no more than a pile of sh*t.

[raven]

P.S I don't know of any self-respecting Cherokees that would be working the psychic fairs passing off "Cherokee Wisdom"

[TooManyBooks]

I should also mention that at the last local Pagan Pride Day, he gave a long lecture which included the information that supposedly he is an authentic Pipe Carrier.

Yeah, well...maybe PVC plumbing pipe.

[educatedindian]

We have a write up on supposed "pipe carriers", also a warning from Dr Richard Allen of the CNO about frauds, that you should look at. They can both be passed along, resposted, quote from, turned into flyers which you could hand out, etc.

You mentioned his appearance. It's possible that he could actually have some Cherokee. Many who don't "look NDN" are, whether they're fair skinned or look more like Jimi Hendrix (whose mother was). But if he does, he either doesn't know or doesn't care about actual Cherokee traditions, or is willing to present a bastardized version of them to make money and boost his standing among local pagans.

For instance, that "became a shaman at seven". One, that's an outsider's term. Two, medicine people or healers are expected to endure quite a lot of emotional hardship, much like doctors are affected by their patients' suffering. I can't imagine any Native healer expecting their seven year old grandson to go through that. Medicine people under 40 or even 50 are not that common.

[TooManyBooks]

>>Medicine people under 40 or even 50 are not that common.

According to his profile (I posted the link), he's 48.  And I do know that looks are no real sign as to whether he's actually NDN or not.  More telling, at least in my opinion, is the other stuff he mixes in with his 'Cherokee wisdom'--rune readings, Daoism, Druidry, etc.  In other words, typical Nuage stuff for someone trying to make a buck.

[Pulchara]

First off, to judge or call a person a Fraud simply because they do not look the way you expect them to is VERY wrong.  Did you consider that he looks like the Celtic side of his family?  His father has celtic blood and so does his grandmother and mother.   I have seen picture of him with his grandparents, guess he should carry that because he doesn't look like them.

Yes, he is 49 and yes it takes a tramatic experience or hardship to become a "Shaman" (and the word is used because it is less arrogant than using Cheorkee word that no one else would know and is close in meaning).  Does being declared legally dead qualify for you?  That happened when he was 7.  That was why his grandmother started his training.  He states that is when he was initated.  Not a full shaman.  Sorry his grandmother intensified his training when his grandfather died and she knew she was going soon.

I have particiaped in pipe cermonies with this man and know other medicine men and pipe "carriers" as you called them.  Sorry every little bit of information cannot be given in a short lecture.

And as far as making a buck.  This is a man who does cermonies for FREE, has dones reading, regressions, and healing work all for free or trade.  And as far as when he does charge, please, so does a doctor, lawyer, nurse, heck your garbage man charges.  He has spent his life learning and teaching.  Sorry he has to make a living.

I sorry this has come across so cruel, but the original post is from someone who has spent what one hour listening to a lecture.  And I have watched this man be attacked by an ex-girlfriend to the point of getting him fired from the place he worked.  That was after a 9 month relationship almost 3 years ago.  And she is still at it.  This feels like another attack.  Especially in the first post you never mentioned meeting him, then you attened one lecture at one PPD, and are going off appearance as your reason he must be a fraud!  Sorry, but it does.  

This man has been working and teaching in the pagan community almost his entire life.  Have any of you been to his rituals, actually sat him down and spoken to him.  Looked through the years of notes, pictures, etc?  Yes, he makes the majority of his living doing readings and classes, but so do ALOT of pagans.  Sorry, but you are wrong to have him listed as a fraud.  

[Le_Weaponnier]

Hmmm
I do begin to wonder why so many of these people are Irish-Cherokee? ? Why Irish?

I'd love to see his Cherokee Tarot . ?  Especially since there is no such thing.

Claims to be a Druid? ? Good claim, the Druids were wiped out to the last man by the Romans. so there are no Druids left to contadict him. ? (Insert sarcasm here)

My garbage man does charge, but he doesn't charge ME. The city pays for him because like a Doctors, lawyer, nurse he is a respected (well, maybe not the lawyer) member of the workforce , and trained by an accredited institution.

Quote:"Yes, he makes the majority of his living doing readings and classes, but so do ALOT of pagans. ? Sorry, but you are wrong to have him listed as a fraud. "

So you are saying that he can't be a fraud because so many others are doing it? Flawed argument at best.
Silly at worst.


Quote:" His father has celtic blood and so does his grandmother and mother"

Quote:"That was why his grandmother started his training. ? He states that is when he was initated. ? Not a full shaman. ? Sorry his grandmother intensified his training when his grandfather died and she knew she was going soon. "
 

So his Celtic grandmoter trained him in Cherokee traditions? Or Celtic Traditions?
You didn't specify.
(Sorry, forgot, Druids were wiped out - So all Druid traditions were lost)
What is a Shaman? Is that a Cherokee or an Irish word?

From Wilkipedia:
Quote:"Shamanism and New Age
The New Age movement imported some ideas from shamanism as well as Eastern religions. As in other such imports, the original users of these ideas frequently condemn New Age use as misunderstood and superficial.

At the same time, there is an endeavor in occult and esoteric circles to reinvent shamanism in a modern form, drawing from core shamanism, a set of beliefs and practices synthesized by Michael Harner and often revolving around the use of ritual drumming and dance; various indigenous forms of shamanism, often focusing on the ritual use of entheogens; as well as chaos magic. "

QUOTE:"Sometimes, however, people from Western cultures claim to be shamans, often associated with either the New Age or Neopaganism movements. This is considered offensive by many indigenous practitioners, who view these New Age, Western "shamans" as hucksters out for money or affirmation of self. Many shamanistic cultures feel there is a danger that their voices will be drowned out by self-styled "shamans," citing, for example, the fact that Lynn Andrews has sold more books than all Native American authors put together. Often too, these New Age Shamans (sometimes called Plastic shamans), make up elaborate ceremonies that are often completely fraudulent (such as Sweat lodge ceremonies, or Chuluaqui-Quodoushka). Others may be based on real traditional ceremonies but reproduced in a way that distorts, or commercializes, their meaning."

[Pulchara]

I do begin to wonder why so many of these people are Irish-Cherokee?  Why Irish?

****Can’t tell you, maybe because there are many people of Irish decent here?  Maybe the Irish like the look of “Native American??? women?  How many people do you know with Celtic blood?  I know a ton, including myself (yes, my grandfather’s family is from County Kerry,  my mom was part Irish so if I want it, it’s mine too!).
 
I'd love to see his Cherokee Tarot .   Especially since there is no such thing.

****Never said Cherokee Tarot.  The literature clearly states that it is a hand painted tarot.  The Spirit Stones are Cherokee.  Moreover, before you jump on those, I have seen similar stones used on the reservation in Colorado.
  
Claims to be a Druid?  Good claim, the Druids were wiped out to the last man by the Romans. so there are no Druids left to contadict him.  (Insert sarcasm here)

****They are plenty of people trying to reclaim the Druid traditions.  Go to England, you cannot swing a cat without hitting one.  They learn and follow to the best the knowledge still exist.  He has studied both out of respect to both sets of heritage.  In addition, no one practices any of the true “old religions??? unless of course you are sacrificing animals and people.

Quote:"Yes, he makes the majority of his living doing readings and classes, but so do ALOT of pagans.  Sorry, but you are wrong to have him listed as a fraud. "
 
So you are saying that he can't be a fraud because so many others are doing it? Flawed argument at best.  Silly at worst.

****That argument was made because (I believe it was “raven???) who said he was wrong for doing readings and classes.  No, that does not make it true but nor does that automatically make it wrong/fraud.
 
 
Quote:" His father has celtic blood and so does his grandmother and mother"
 
Quote:"That was why his grandmother started his training.  He states that is when he was initiated.  Not a full shaman.  Sorry his grandmother intensified his training when his grandfather died and she knew she was going soon. "
  
 
So his Celtic grandmoter trained him in Cherokee traditions? Or Celtic Traditions?
You didn't specify.
(Sorry, forgot, Druids were wiped out - So all Druid traditions were lost)
What is a Shaman? Is that a Cherokee or an Irish word?

****Did you read the original posts?  You will see his grandmother was Irish-Cherokee (trying to explain appearance).  Thus, he does have more “Celtic??? DNA than NA so he doesn’t exactly LOOK NA.  That was the entire original argument.  That he LOOKS white.  So do a lot of Cherokee.  I don’t look Russian, but my grandfather was off the boat and until his dying day spoke broken English.

****And as I tried to state, the word “Shaman??? is a word we understand.  I could use Russian to sound like I know more than I do or to sound more authentic.  But that is arrogance and deceit.  Sometimes I will use a term that is not exactly correct but the closest that I can come in English to what I am trying to express.  That is why the word was used.  Unless you speak Cherokee (which I don’t), you would not understand the expression.

[debbieredbear]

The Cherokee people DO NOT have pipe carriers. Once again, I will repeat that. Read it s l o w l y: THe Cherokee People DO NOT have pipe carriers. That is a plains tradition. Sort of. A Cherokee person claiming to be a pipe carrier is most likely a fraud.

[Pulchara]

I cannot tell you where the pipe came from, but he does not claim it is Cherokee nor that he received it in his original training.  Just that he is and it was given to him at a gathering in WI.  

I used "pipe carrier" because that is what wsa used in the orginial post.  I know he does do pipe cermonies and treats it with great reverance.  As to the tradition it came from or who taught it to him, I suggest you ask him.

[debbieredbear]

CHerokees DO NOT have pipe carriers. And the sort of pipe that he most likely uses is not the kind that Cherokees used. or use. Does the pipe have a place for one, single stem? Then it is not Cherokee. I have had several traditional Cherokees describe a REAL Cherokee pipe. I have not seen one and will not say what was told to me here. But if it is one stem and one bowl, then it ain't Cherokee. And, where did it come from? Hell, you can purchase pipes off the net, at many nuage stores, or from the gift shop at Pipestone Monument in Minnesota. Traditonal Cherokee people would have no need to use someone else's traditions. Theirs are plenty ok as it is. The Cherokees on this board will tell you the same. Red flags go up in Indian Country when someone claims one tribe but uses to traditions of another.

[JosephSWM]

As for us Cherokees and pipes, there are pipes for personal use and community pipes. Thats all I will share about pipes.

As for the Irish, don't forget that there were many American settlers from all over Europe. Unlike Indian people out west, we have had contact for 500 and some years. That includes intermarrying and rape, both of which produce mixed blood children. Also, many missionaries (have not read about Irish ones though) were allowed by some Cherokee leaders to settle on our land and open up shop.

Joseph

[TrishaRoseJacobs]

****Never said Cherokee Tarot. ? The literature clearly states that it is a hand painted tarot. ? The Spirit Stones are Cherokee. ? Moreover, before you jump on those, I have seen similar stones used on the reservation in Colorado.
 ?

Uh, yeah. You saw Cherokee "Spirit Stones" being used on a Cherokee reservation in Colorado? Don't think so, sorry.

[piya]

I do begin to wonder why so many of these people are Irish-Cherokee? ? Why Irish?

****Can’t tell you, maybe because there are many people of Irish decent here? ? Maybe the Irish like the look of “Native American??? women? ? How many people do you know with Celtic blood? ? I know a ton, including myself (yes, my grandfather’s family is from County Kerry, ? my mom was part Irish so if I want it, it’s mine too!).

"Your mom was part Irish" ? which part, left leg, right foot

 "so if I want it, its mine too.". ? So you can qualify for a CDIB card. Certified Degree of Irish Blood.

Just thought I would add a bit of sillyness, like your post, pipe carrier, tarot readings lol.