Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees

[Four_Winds]

Reply for snorks:
Back when Ed Littlefox's grandfather was a child in OK Territory, he was one of those selected to be taught the Old Ways so that they would be preserved. His family members, as well others, were interrogated when their children did not show up for boarding school. They would not tell where the children were or anything else, not even under extreme duress, and paid with their lives. This is a brief synopsis, Ed Littlefox may share the details if he wishes.

Living according to commitment to keeping and practicing certain knowledge and ways is a covenant with the Ancestors and Creator. It is a Path and dedication that supercedes normal lifestyles and  comforts, family and relationships, and even health. That cost was borne by both Runningwolf and Littlefox , as well as others of that ilk.  The details are personal information that I feel not appropriate to discuss on a public forum; if they wish to share it , that is up to them.

If you are dedicated to local conservation (or any other purpose you believe intensely in), how far will you go, how much will you give up, toward fullfillment of of your commitment?  


tohi,
deb

[educatedindian]

Hello Deb,
I take it you are Deborah Natoli, the secretary of the "band/ecclesiastical society"?
Hello Redbear,
Hopefully it won't get too confusing, since we already have a longtime member, Deborah Redbear.

"It seems to me that altho your intentions are good, this discussion has evolved into a nit-picking battle and lack of understanding of the most important points thru lack of comprehension or effective communications."

Exactly. Copeland didn't seem to understand what we were asking about, just assumed one thing after another and argued about things we never said while ignoring the real questions.

There are dozens of these would be Cherokee tribes out there, some well intentioned, and some outright abusive in how they treat their members. The "Soquili" shares many things in common with them:

Hostility towards recognized NDNs.
A persecution complex about being unenrolled or unrecognized.
Vagueness about their alleged ability to teach tradition.

Those could all be signs of well intentioned if flawed groups as well, but the "Soquili" also shares these things in common with some of the worser would be tribes:

Claiming or teaching non-Cherokee NDN traditions as Cherokee.
Claiming or teaching non-Native ways as Native.
And of course, immediately trying to stifle criticism, including using ridiculous legal threats.

Once again, in Copeland's own words:

"These winged creatures are the essence of Spirit-Energy. As such they need a “bed-plate??? of matter to continue the creation of a material plane. Humanity is that bed-plate. To take care of this new, material body, “Ego??? was invented along with consciousness. We are now separate from Spirit Nature (our True Nature) only because the Ego, with its will, rebels against the Spirit-Self."

Are you seriously trying to tell us *that* is part of Cherokee tradition?

And like Patty pointed out, most of the time he's just taking Ed McGaa's word about Lakota tradition.

Why would an alleged Cherokee traditionalist spend so much time teaching about medicine wheels, for example?

And why would a Micmaq (yes Copeland, I've also seen it spelled M'icmaq, Mic'maq, and Micm'aq) be teaching "lost Cherokees"?

Why does Copeland criticize pan NDNism but talk constantly about eastern woodlands or southern woodlands, as though Cherokee beliefs=Choctaw=Chickasaw=Seminole=Lumbee=dozens of other tribes? ?

[Four_Winds]

Hi Al,
Yes I am Deborah Natola.
Please note that the Soquili Center, Soquili Band, and the Ecclesiastical Society are 3 different entities for specific purposes, but they are inter-related.

I think the misunderstandings are coming from both sides, and started with the initial comments about "horse ceremony people" and "An alleged band of people with distant Cherokee ancestry led by a Micmaq talking aobut the Anishnaabe Seven Fires prophecy. "  both of which are derogitory, insulting, and contradictory to the information quoted in the same post. But no point in re-hashing the arguments if answers are what you want, right?

I do not know how you came to these conclusions:
"Hostility towards recognized NDNs.
A persecution complex about being unenrolled or unrecognized.Vagueness about their alleged ability to teach tradition. "

regarding :
"These winged creatures are the essence of Spirit-Energy. As such they need a “bed-plate??? of matter to continue the creation of a material plane. Humanity is that bed-plate. To take care of this new, material body, “Ego??? was invented along with consciousness. We are now separate from Spirit Nature (our True Nature) only because the Ego, with its will, rebels against the Spirit-Self."
 
Are you seriously trying to tell us *that* is part of Cherokee tradition? "

Yes, other than descriptive terminology is different. The Winged Beings are a part of Cherokee traditions as well as many others.

"he's just taking Ed McGaa's word about Lakota tradition."

Ed has no regard for MaGaa, nor ever read anything by him. He received his Lakota information directly from reputable sources, in the traditional ways. He has had opportunities to stay with several other tribal cultures besides his own, share the knowledge, and participate in ceremonies.

"Why would an alleged Cherokee traditionalist spend so much time teaching about medicine wheels, for example? "

Medicine wheels are a part of Cherokee tradition, as a tool for teaching.
Three basic things that most north American tribes have in common are sacred use of tobacco, medicine wheels, and purification rites. Keeping in mind that the culture goes back at least 10,000 years, some variations specific to certain tribes/groups have evolved.

And why would a Micmaq  be teaching "lost Cherokees"?  

Why shouldn't a Mi'kmaq  teach people of Cherokee or any other heritage ? Runingwolf is a superb artist and craftsman as well as historian. He speaks  several languages and dialects, and is well recognized as a pictoglyph interpreter. He has taught at UNM, U-AZ, Berkely, NM Park Service, etc, and can give you referances to check from them as well as from Mescalero, Pueblo, and others.

........................................................

In the early history of the Americas, the indigenous people traveled, intermingled, inter-married, and traded to and from all points. They had a large population, complex societies, cities with outlaying villages, regional centers for ceremony, education, commerce, etc. It was after the Spanish (who did NOT "discover" America) and others brought diseases that killed more people than their weapons did, and the population was decimated (estimated at 80%-90% of aprox 100,000,000), that the survivors became more separated.

The site that Soquili Center is on was an inter-tribal  center for education and major ceremonies for 1000s of years. We are keeping with that concept in the re-establishment of the place. We have hosted representatives of other NDN backgrounds and cultures, who have (protocol being followed) shared ceremony, teachings, and comradere.  
It is a Sacred Site by it's inherent nature as well as use by previous occupants. This has been experienced by many people, and historically documented by the first Euro settler here in the 1750s.
We do not own the property, are leasing the farm that contains some of the former habitation areas and most of the ceremonial site; another part of the site is on an adjoining tract which is being developed. This farm may be sold for development in the future. We are taking steps necessary to preserve and perpetuate this place for what it was and is, for the benefit af all.



tohi,
deb

[educatedindian]

Deb,
The answers you've given are even more disturbing, if this is what you learned from Copeland and "Runingwolf". (More on him in a moment.)

"'An alleged band of people with distant Cherokee ancestry led by a Micmaq talking aobut the Anishnaabe Seven Fires prophecy.'  both of which are insulting and contradictory."

You might find it insulting, but it happens to be the truth.
You call yourself a band when you are clearly not.
Copeland openly says everyone who comes to him is of distant ancestry.
Your own site talks about the Seven Fires prophecy.
 
"I do not know how you came to these conclusions:
'Hostility towards recognized NDNs.
A persecution complex about being unenrolled or unrecognized.
Vagueness about their alleged ability to teach tradition.'"

Simple, they are taken from Copeland's own words.
 
"'These winged creatures are the essence of Spirit-Energy. As such they need a “bed-plate??? of matter to continue the creation of a material plane. Humanity is that bed-plate. To take care of this new, material body, “Ego??? was invented along with consciousness. We are now separate from Spirit Nature (our True Nature) only because the Ego, with its will, rebels against the Spirit-Self.'"
 
Yes, other than descriptive terminology is different."

Oh brother. Humanity as a bed plate is more than just terminology. It's Nuage gibberish.

"Ed has no regard for MaGaa, nor ever read anything by him. He gotten his Lakota information directly from reputable sources, in the traditional ways. He has had opportunities to stay with several other tribal cultures besides his own, share the knowledge, and participate in ceremonies."

I've been invited to more than a few ceremonies, but that does NOT make me qualified to teach them, nor take payment. Nor is Copeland  
 
"Medicine wheels are a part of Cherokee tradition, as a tool for teaching. You didn't know that?"

Medicine wheels are NOT part of Cherokee tradition, except among Nuage wannabes and those influenced by them. You didn't know that?
 
"There are three basic things that most north American tribes have in common.... sacred use of tobacco, medicine wheels, and purification rites."

He sure has been feeding you a lot of nonsense.
Medicine wheels are rare outside of the northern plains, and for some of them they are just a calendar, and for others any sacred teaching either was lost long ago or is being kept hidden.
Most of the nonsense being claimed about MWs comes from Nuage exploiter Charles Storm and his awful Seven Arrows books, denounced as fraudulent and offensive by the Cheyenne (including Bernard Red Cherries when NAFPS worked with him briefly.)  
 
"Why shouldn't a Mi'cmaq be able to teach people of Cherokee or any other heritage"

Because he doesn't know the culture, couldn't possibly as well as an actual Cherokee.
Because it's not his culture.
Because it's disrespectful and offensive to just about all Cherokees.

From others, I found out Runningwolf is not a Micmaq name. If this is a Spiritual name, this would only be said in ceremony and in their own language, not in ordinary use and not the English translation.
The name Runningwolf is also not Penobscot. Runningwolf says he was taught by a Penobscot Grandmother, which really does not make sense, and the Penobscot is a different tribe, related somewhat to the Passamaquoddy, who are related somewhat to the Maliseet.  All speak a similar language with different dialects, and grew corn.
Mikmaq is a totally different language and was much more hunter gatherer culture, and so had different cultural traditions.

And that doesn't even begin to go into the problems with how different the Micmaq are from Cherokee. People claiming one heritage but "teaching" about another is one of the most common signs of a Nuage fraud. If they didn't charge you, Copeland openly admitted he charged others.

Based on what you tell me, Deb, I'm moving the "Soquili" to the Fraud section. Your group is nowhere near as bad as the Harley Reagans or Lynn Andrews, but it is doing a lot of wrong things, teaching a lot of lies and desperately lacking in respect or knowledge of the traditions.
Most of what Copeland and "Runningwolf" (whatever his actual name and heritage are) is Pan Indian nonsense, assuming all NDN cultures are the same. It's sad to see what he's doing, misleading so many people trying to learn the old ways who don't realize how little he knows.

[snorks]

I agree with Educated Indian.  

From what little I know about Indian issues, one thing that people do stress is the maintaining of their own cultures.  If someone is a Micmaq, they would be teaching other Micmaqs or at least be a part of the tribe.  They wouldn't be teaching Cherokees about being Cherokees.

I think since the New Age folks have mixed things up so much that it seems that everyone has a Medicine Wheel.  I didn't know that they didn't until I started reading this site.  All the books have the medicine wheel as part of their lore.

I think once you start delving into the sources of New Age ideas, you get a different idea about the real culture.

[Four_Winds]

Dear Al,
It is not "my" website, I did not write anything on it. I am only trying to answer questions and clarify some points where you are confused . I do not speak for Ed or Michael personally, nor have all the information they do.
I don't know why Ed used that terminology for the Winged Beings, but a polite question would work much better than disparaging remarks. Are you doubting their existance too?
Being invited to ceremonies is not quite the same as living with people and learning directly from them in the traditional way. Any traditionally trained medicine person or ceremenial leader would understand how that works.
Who told you Cherokees do not have medicine wheels? ? That is a white-man word for it anyway, not what every culture calls it, but it is the same concept and system.
Who said a Mi'kmaq was teaching people about Cherokee customs?
Runningwolf is the shortened translation of his ancestral name, and is his legal name.
Ed Littlefox and Michael Runningwolf have a lot more knowledge of who they are and their respective heritage than any self-styled expert, and can provide the credentials as well as futher details.
As I stated before there is too much to explain in a few paragraphs, a forum, or on a website.
to hi
Deb

[debbieredbear]

Just a guess, but I would bet it was Cherokee people that said Cherokees don't have medicine wheels. Are you Cherokee?

[TrishaRoseJacobs]

So, Four Winds, you don't see anything wrong in non-Cherokees teaching Cherokee people or non ndns for that matter, non-Cherokee traditions while claiming that these teachings are, in fact, Cherokee?

Oh, so perhaps I oughta set myself up as a Catholic priest. Being a non-Catholic, and a woman to boot, I'm sure that when I teach Catholics all about being Hindu's or Protestants, both things I don't anything about either, it will be perfectly acceptable.

Let me be straight up with you - I'm Cherokee, but I'm not enrolled. And I don't care about anyone else's enrollement or lack thereof either, so long as they don't claim otherwise.

What I do care about is people who are of Cherokee heritage being taught non-Cherokee traditions by self proclaimed "Cherokee" experts like your Mic Mac buddy.

Now, since you seem to be his friend, perhaps you could answer these questions or get him to answer them for you

1. Is he of Cherokee heritage, yes or no?
2. Is he a practicing "medicine man" in a legitimate (not over the internet or in some bizarre place like Timbuktu) Cherokee community?
3. Why make up a Cherokee band?
4. Since I can't say I've ever heard of these "Winged Beings" (and being Cherokee I would have thought that I'd heard something about them by now) that are supposedly part of our traditions - perhaps you could enlighten me. What are they? Who told you about them? Who told that person? And could you tell me where they fit into the stories I know since you know all about it? And if you don't know - then what gives you the right to come on here and tell us all that we're just giving "opinions" rather than speaking from our cultural backgrounds - a background that doesn't appear to be yours?

Just a little curious about all these Cherokee "traditions" I don't know about.



 :-/

[Four_Winds]

Trisha Rose,
Your first question is a little confusing. If you mean Ed, his heritage is Cherokee  and Saponi, he was raised on Qualla,  taught by his Cherokee maternal grandfather, is extremely knowledgeable and qualified. If you mean Michael, he was raised and  taught his Mi'kmaq traditions and culture from a very early age and is extremely knowledgeable and qualified, but he never has claimed to teach Cherokee traditions or do Cherokee ceremony, and it has never been stated that he does.  Neither has Ed claimed that he teaches Mi'kmaq ways or does Mi'kmaq ceremony, nor has that been stated. Other than what people here have gotten confused.


In your second question I am guessing you mean Ed.
1. see above, and as stated on his website.
2. he is a legitimate medicine man,  in open society; he helps anyone regardless of race, color, or belief.
(he has NEVER asked for money for this)
3. I think that is explained on his website.
4. They are Sacred Beings.  Ed was taught about them and other Old Way Knowledge in Alati dialect (the original language). Some of the older people still know about them and other old traditions, but it is not common knowledge amoung all people of Cherokee descent.
5. I have spent over 15 years learning and experiencing things on levels that you (in general) apparently don't have a clue about. Altho I don't have as extensive or the same background as Ed and Michael, I am qualified to comment on what I know. Some things are not to be taken lightly or with disrespect, nor for public consumption. If you want that information you will have to ask in the proper way and be prepared to dedicate some serious time and effort...if you qualify and are accepted by a teacher.

to hi
deb

[Le_Weaponnier]

Quote:
"These winged creatures are the essence of Spirit-Energy. As such they need a “bed-plate??? of matter to continue the creation of a material plane. Humanity is that bed-plate. To take care of this new, material body, “Ego??? was invented along with consciousness. We are now separate from Spirit Nature (our True Nature) only because the Ego, with its will, rebels against the Spirit-Self."

Hmmm so you dig a little deeper and you find out about the "winged creatures"

From Ed Littlefox's page:
http://www.metaphysicalcenterofnewjersey.org/PipeCeremony.html
"The second breath: taken in reverence for the Earth Mother Elohi, mother and provider of all living things."

So I did a Google search for "Elohi"
Oddly enough, Elohi is the same name used on this website -http://www.angelsuniverse.com/elohichi.htm

There you may contact the 'Angels'?

"An Elohi-Chi session is done through a live phone consultation, scheduled at a mutually agreeable time. Elohi-Chi is a powerful spiritual healing and transformational method similar to LaHoChi and Reiki. Elohi-Chi helps to restore healthy balance on all levels of being, by restoring our axiotonal connections and etheric crystalline matrix, or Divine Blueprint, through the Elohim and Angelic realms, and working in conjunction with the Brotherhood and Sisterhood of Light, Ascended Masters, Christ Consciousness and Divine Mother.

Elohi represents the Elohim light, Eri has been working with the Elohim and the Elohim Angels of many dimensional levels since 1996. Through years of learning how to facilitate the higher dimensional vibrations and light in her workshops, groups and readings, Eri was instructed by the Elohim to assist in bringing through this information and healing modality to humanity. Just as in Reiki and other healing techniques, Elohi-Chi works on a step-by-step initiatory level, from Level I through level XII to Master. Each level opens more of your channels of light, attunes higher chakras and levels of Higher Self into your physical aruic field, and connects you through your axiotonal lines/meridians to Healing Masters and levels of Pure Holy Spirit Light. "

Now since "chi" is an eastern word for energy. How far east did the Cherokee get? I'm glad to see that the Cherokee people believe in Angels
And here we go again with the Chakras
Isn't "chakras" a word from the 'other ' Indians? You know, the eastern ones?

It would seem that Littlefox is mixing his cultures.

[Four_Winds]

Elohi / E-lo-hi is Tsalagi for Earth...yep,  for real, go look it up.
Sometimes it is the longer form of E-lo-hi-no
I'm sure you can find it in any good online Cherokee-English dictionary.

This has nothing to do with the Elohi-chi person, who is using the Hebrew word Elohi meaning God  


Other info:
 http://www.ahalenia.com/noksi/elohi.html

http://www.elohi.com/

http://homepage.mac.com/eliseo2/blogwavestudio/LH20050117105112/LHA20050527152004/index.html
          
http://members.nuvox.net/~on.roz/God/name/elohim.html

(kinda makes you wonder if there is some connection between the Hebrews and Cherokees, huh?)

 


deb

[TrishaRoseJacobs]

uh, no. Not really.

Okay Four Winds. Good to know the Mic Mac guy isn't running around claiming to be a teacher of Cherokee teachings. Though - Why couldn't you just say that rather your snide little remark way up above about "Why shouldn't a Mi'kmaq ? teach people of Cherokee or any other heritage ? Runingwolf is a superb artist and craftsman as well as historian. He speaks ? several languages and dialects, and is well recognized as a pictoglyph interpreter"

2. I didn't ask about an open society. I asked does he practice in a Cherokee society administering to Cherokee people - on the Qualla where you say he was raised, for example - cuz if not - well, I would could consider him a generic "medicine man" who caters to whites rather than an actual Adawehi. Now, if so many of us Cherokee are so ignorant as you imply, I have to wonder why that is. Why not live in a Cherokee community and help teach the kids what they oughtta know instead of spending all his time with non's who, really, don't need to know? Is it because, as with many frauds, traveling to a native community to teach runs the risk of having someone find out about what you're doing?

3. And clearly, by the rest of your dumb little remarks, that's what he is. Rather than answer questions about knowledge you claim to have, you pull the "It's sacred, that's why I have it and you don't" Nuage Two-Step. Spare me the fifteen years of experience thing, okay? I've been reading Harry Potter for almost ten years now, but that doesn't mean I think I can actually go to Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry.

Thanks for your uninformative and egoistic reply, appreciated it.

[EarthinkCo]

Hello to all,
I am writing to say that this strange judgement against Soquili is distracting attention from the purpose of Soquili. That is regarding the sacred mounds they are working to protect and preserve. This area has been viewed by the State Archeologist and there is much evidence to prove the existence and historical use of this large, beautiful site. It is currently threatened with development.
There are more valuable ways to spend our time. Remember the land issues? How about the current plight of the First Nations? Or historical genocide and ethnic cleansing?
You know, these mounds could be the earth and people changing ceremonial grounds that the hearts of the people have called out for, waited for and sacrificed for. At the very least they are a significant historical cultural artifact.
I am a business person and am appalled. I do not see any real attempt to substantiate anything you've slung at Ed and RunningWolf. Your original posting didn't even reflect the words on the Soquili Site. Broad extrapolations have been turned into biased declarations that border on slander. It's very sad to see a professed brother pulling the "crab in the pot" on a couple of very committed elders.
Marianne
PS. You can "check" me out as I am checking you out. www.earthinkco.com

[Four_Winds]

Ok Al, TRJ and all..
there has been enough info provided and credentials offered to prove that Ed Littlefox and Michael Runningwolf are who they say they are, and the Soquili Center, Band, and Ecc. Society are not involved in any fraudulent acts or purpose.
But you continue to demand irrelevant personal and spiritual information, try to make connections that  Just don't come crying when Coyote bites you in the butt.
deb

[Chutwood]

Deb - Four Winds,

You demand respect repeatedly, but you are not willing to give it.  Where is the respect to those who are trying to protect the innocent against the frauds and abusers of sacred ways?  

Knowledgeable people have asked serious questions and you have responded with disdain and arrogance, which in itself calls into question those that teach you.  When you have been given truth from those knowledgeable people, you disregard it without even considering it.  It appears what you've learned is to have a closed mind, and again it calls into question those that teach you.

I am a Puyallup (Coast Salish), not Cherokee or Lakota, so I don't have the knowledge to question your statements that are specific to Cherokee or Lakota.  But, I do live as traditional Puyallup life as possible and have done so for my 56 years, and even I recognize some of the misinformation that you have been taught.  Medicine wheels are not part of the Coast Salish ways; tobacco is not a part of the sacred ways of the Coast Salish peoples, so CLEARLY medicine wheel and tobacco are NOT common to all indigineous peoples.  

If you have wrong information on just those two issues, then what else might you be misinformed about?  If you were taught incorrectly on those two issues than what other teachings you received might be wrong?

Those are the questions that you SHOULD be asking and that is the very reason that I (speaking only for self) very much doubt the knowledge and expertise of your teachers.  

Storm