How do I?

[Le_Weaponnier]

A conversation with friends led me to an interesting point.
 What would be the best way to show someone the truth about the fake ceremonies they are studying?
It's all very good to tell them it's fake. But they can be so wrapped up in it, they cannot see how it could be so wrong. To them, it feels good and right, that it must be ok.

Suggestions?

[educatedindian]

I've had the same experience while trying to get through to people who came to hear me in Europe. Telling them the truth in a straightforward way often doesn't work. Their leaders have denials already scripted out for them.
Try appealing to their self interest. "Will it really help you to learn false things? The Hopi, Lakota, etc, say he's not real."
Or how this will make NDNs feel about them, since so many Nuagers are big on feeling over reasoning.

[Le_Weaponnier]

I have tried a lot of that, but it all seems to get is comments like. "but it feels right!"
I suppose, they really are in need of an objective source for real info as opposed to the nuage crap that permeates the Net.
Maybe that's part of the problem, there is so much 'feel good' pablum out there on the Net, that none of them ever get as far as here. The truth may be out there, but it's not in the first few pages of a Google search.

[weheli]

In this world we live in, it is a "feel good" society. Not only in the newagers but also in different religions. The saying is "if it feels good do it". Nothing could be further from the truth of things. We Natives, traditionaly, do not go by feelings or emotions. We do what is right because it is so. Going on emotions when it comes to teachings etc. will always lead down the wrong path. I speak from experience. There is what is called decernment, a sixth sense if I may say. The great Spirit will let you know by this the true way of things. Learning to listen to this is a life long lesson. I never second guess this as it is my way of know the right way of things.

People who are into the "feel good/right" things is very hard to get through. The facts in writing to show them the right of it may possibly be a good start. Argueing gets us no where and they become divensive very quick. . Get the truth of the right way and present it to them with no words spoken, walk away and leave the rest for Creator, throw some tobacco to the wind and let it go.
                                                                       Wado  weheli
                                                

[Ingeborg]

Yes, one does get a lot of "it feels right", and it leaves me speechless, too. I've had a few experiences with our hobbyist variety of the species, and they come up with this very argument: I feel good doing this and so I will go on, no matter what you say. One gets accused of whining and whimpering about ndn culture, and that on the other hand one never sees a real life ndn telling them off. And anyway, if and when the ndns had anything against what they do, why didn't they come over and tell them? Duh, nobody does, so they certainly do not oppose their wearing ndn clothes for the weekend. And so on and on. Apart from that, they produce the same viciousness as nuagers upon receiving a little info.

'Hate' is a magic word used abundantly.... I just read it once again today - in a thread giving info about a German musician going by a name much fancier than his real life one who does 'genuine' ndn music (and sells or at least used to sell quite well). He also did some nuage stuff, gathering a community around him, and under this pretence apparently did a bit of chickenhawking on the kids brought along. The man is sought by the police for some 2 or 3 years meanwhile... The info put up saw comments like: (paraphrased) I don't care, I feel good listening to his music and will continue to listen to and to buy it - why do you try and spoil the music for me, seasoned with a few reproaches for the author of the warning of being 'full of hate' and 'did he do anything to you?'

This last one makes me feel rather helpless - it should be a basic that we protect children from the likes of him instead of turning blind eyes by the dozen as long as we aren't harmed personally.

But if it's as bas as that - what *can* we tell these people to make info get through?

[JosephSWM]

If there is an alternative you could offer someone  then that might be good. I have had white people tell me I am wrong about my own culture. Thats when you need to really understand the role of Trickster in our culture and become one for them. Straight on sometimes does not work and you have to look for a back door or side entrance into their minds to get through.

Joseph

[AndreasWinsnes]

New Age and the traditions are different religions. We are actually seeing a religious conflict between two different world views. I don't know how it is in the US, but new agers in Norway base their beliefs more on studies of comparative religions than just a feel good-feeling. They think all traditions - Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or traditional animist religions - are more or less out of date, and that humanity should move towards an understanding of the divine essence that they believe is common for all religions. To change this view will be just as difficult as to convince a Hindu that he or she should convert to Christianity. But new agers think that they themselves are full of love and kindness, so one can make them aware that it is not kind to exploit other religions. They are also very sure about their own religion, so one can presents arguments that shows that new age and so called comparativism are not more scientifically true than other world views. But will it help? Those who have ears, will hear, but the rest? ?  ?

Many Harnerists dig the Trickster. Maybe use the carrot instead of the stick? ?

[JosephSWM]

Trickster is more than they understand. Trickster in his many forms is a deeply rooted part of our culture. They can only understand the surface meanings of Trickster. But I think this is off the topic anyway so I'll stop with Trickster talk.

[Raven_Walkingstick]

  ? Joseph, sorry for laughing but it is true about the trickster. If people understood them, they would see that trickster has it's place and they can be a teaching tool.

[weheli]

 [smiley=thumbsup.gif] Yes Joesph I to find the truth in what you say as well as Raven.It is on topic, as many of these we talk of are/can be tricksters /fakes and frauds themself. It is the deeper level that can be of the most help.Much more than wolf in sheeps clothing.

                                                                 ;)Weheli