Who is Wananeeche or Wa-na-nee-che of the U.K.

[educatedindian]

We actually should thank Renault's supporter/attendee Haunted Fox, for providing the website that clearly shows evidence of him being a fraud, where before the debate had gone back and forth. Renault is selling ceremony, and even defends doing so in his own words. Relabeling a sweatlodge doesn't stop it from being one, and claiming he won't overcharge doesn't make charging any less crass, unspiritual, or offensive. It's still pay to pray.

There's also no evidence Renault is properly trained in how to do a sweatlodge, so all reading this be advised of the possibility of injury. Fox, has he ever spoken of who suposedly trained him? Did anyone of the attendees/marks make any effort to find out if his claims are true? What reservation or community is he claiming? What specific (alleged) teachers?

And of course those phony, bizarre, useless knockoffs of tarot cards. Hopefully, Fox, you will or have read this link.
http://www.lelandra.com/comptarot/tarotindian.htm

[hauntedfox]

Renault also took part as a lecturer in an alleged healers' conference in Graz/Austria in 2004:

taking part in a conference ? how hilariously damning  . . . !!!?!?!?!  if we'd had evidence of this calibre at Nurenburg we'd all be goose-stepping and speaking German now . . .

[Superdog]

Looks an awful lot like a sweatlodge with a different name to me.  There is also constant spelling mistakes throughout the site as well as on the promotional flyers.  There's a few in here...

-----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.journeytospirit.org.uk/Wananeeche_Official_Website-mother_earth_lodges-12.php



What To Expect From a Mother Earth Lodge
The mother earth lodge is a sacred spiritual place for cleansing, purification, healing and renewal at all levels. Unlike some lodges like a sweat lodge it is not a place to suffer. The lodge site will be in a seculded area, probably with trees nearby. The lodge is constructed by building a frame using 28 poles of Willow which represent the 28 ribs of a woman, into a dome shape. This construction is then covered with blankets and tarpaulin and the ground inside with mats and blanket so that when closed it is completely dark inside. A flap is left open to offer access. A shallow pit is dug in the centre of the lodge to receive heated stones which are heated on a fire built close to the lodge and watched over by the firekeeper.


The stones heated in the fire are called the Elders, being our oldest living relations and having been here long before people. They are our grandfathers and grandmothers and they will absorb illness, impurities, negative energies and heat.


Water, representing the fluid in the womb of mother earth is poured over the stones to make steam inside the lodge which is both purifying and cleansing. Steam opens up the pores allowing the realease of toxins  and impurities from the body. Sweating has a deep siritual meaning, it brings balance and health to the spirit, mind and body. It can also bring clarity to specific problems, call on helpul spirits and reconnect us with the source of the power. One enters the lodge as a seed in the womb of mother earth who nutures them with love and compassion. On entering the lodge one should say "to all my relations" and move in a clockwise direction to find their place and once everyone is seated the ceremony begins. The hot stones are brought in, the flap is closed and total darkness prevails. The heat begins to rise, aromatic fragrances fill the air and the water is poured onto the stones to begin the cleansing process. Prayers and sacred songs are offered and the connection and cleansing begins.

There are four "rounds" of stones brought in and the flap opened between each to let the steam out and to allow time for rest. The first round is to call in the energies, life force energies and spirits from the Four Directions to honour Mother Earth and the Creator. The second round is for personal prayer, the third for healing and the fourth to thank all who have helped and to bid them farewell.
People then leave the lodge, again in a clockwise direction saying "to all my relations" as the exit. There is always time for talk and questions as everyone enjoys and shares the comfort of the fire outside.
You are advised to bring plenty of drinking water and some food for after the lodge. You will also need a blanket or groundsheet outside to sit on and a towel to dry yourself with. Light and comfortable clothing is required inside the lodge and you are advised not to wear hevy jewellery or bring valuables to the site. Pets are not allowed. You should not eneter the ldge having taken strong medicine, alcohol or non-prescribed drugs. Nudity is not appropriate.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The bold is mine highlighting a very disturbing and unsafe practice we've discussed at length on the board and has already resulted in tragic deaths of participants.

But just to be clear.

Tarps for sweatlodges ARE VERY DANGEROUS and should never be used.

Hauntedfox...on that merit alone...selling a "service" (ceremony, workshop, lodge...whatever the semantics are) that is extremely dangerous to the participants and puts them in danger foolishly should be a red flag to you.  I'm not trying to convince you, but the reality is the link you provided includes some of the most damning information for what Rennault is doing and proof that he really should stop what he's doing.  I see nothing that helps your side of the argument.   All I see from you is excuses for him (along with a cocky attitude).  How do you excuse the tarps?? 

Superdog

[Ingeborg]

taking part in a conference ? how hilariously damning  . . . !!!?!?!?!  if we'd had evidence of this calibre at Nurenburg we'd all be goose-stepping and speaking German now . . .

Nice one, hauntedfox. However, attempts to smear me won't get you far here, and they say more about you than they do about me.

Anyways, if it comes to cooperation with protagonists of the congress mentioned with the (Neo)Nazi scene, we shall have a closer look at one example: Bruno Würtenberger from Switzerland who makes regular appearances at these congresses.

German Wikipedia says about Würtenberger:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_W%C3%BCrtenberger

"[...] born Dec 24, 1960 in Zurich, W. is a Swiss author and consciousness researcher. He has previously worked as a cook, in hotels, and as a sailor. Since 1987, he has been working as a medium and healer and absolved a training as a personal and consciousness coach in the USA.“

Würtenberger meanwhile founded a „Spiritual School Switzerland“, „New Peace“, and „Free Spirit Training“ (founded in 2006).

This is an interview with Würtenberger dd 2002:
http://www.sektenberatung.ch/goto.php?link=27&end=pdf

The interviewer writes in an introductory paragraph:
„Würtenberger is an excellent example for the development of an esoteric, spiritual teacher. In the 1990ies, he saw himself as an authorized representative of a group of otherworldly beings and announced their message with the catchword of „friends of the light“. These messages were of a definite anthroposophic coinage. Würtenberger saw himself as a medium.

After having got contacts to 'Avatar', he merchandised his range of supplies as „Spiritual School Switzerland“. He now compares himself to high masters and gurus like Osho or Krishnamurti.“


Apart from making appearances at 'healer' congresses, Würtenberger also regularly cooperates with projects like 'Secret.tv' and 'Jeet.tv' where he advertizes with the help of interviews and so-called documentations. Both projects are more or less closely connected to the esoteric scene, in particular what is called 'brown esoterics' here, and provide 'information' on various rightwing extreme conspiration theories.

Secret.tv:
http://www.esowatch.com/ge/index.php?title=Secret-TV

The internet domain was formerly owned by Jan Udo Holey (son) and Johannes Holey (father). Both of them well-known protagonists in the Neonazi scene, Holey Jr. is a writer (aka Jan van Helsing) who combines (Neo)Nazi ideology and esoterics; he is a holocaust denier. Holey Jr announced his demise from the project in early 2010, but the project still works and 'reports' in their usual way (e.g. ufology, so-called alternative medicine, promotion of fraudulent cases of inedia – e.g. Ellen Grave aka Jasmuheen, conspiration theories). Most of the films shown are either videos available for free on youtube, some films and interviews done by secret.tv, as well as videos provided by various authors who intend to advertise their products or messages in this way.


jeet.tv
http://www.esowatch.com/ge/index.php?title=Jeet

Owned by Italian esoteric and black magic Robert Liuzzi who claims to have received the name 'Jeet' by Osho aka Bhagwan. Jeet.tv has offered a considerable platform to Neonazi 'Fuerstentum Germania' [Principality of Germania], a group of persons who firmly believe in the non-existence of the Federal Republic of Germany and thus founded their own state as a successor to the German Reich, using a run-down castle for their HQ, issuing their own passports. Of course FG also offered several persons unique possibilities regarding new 'jobs' in their 'provisional government'. Jeet.tv reported about FG on a daily basis up to April 2009. Liuzzi has also published black magic curses against critics and even called supporters to hunt down critics.

Liuzzi apparently also supports the so-called Germanic New Medicine 'invented' by Ryke Geerd Hamer who continues to work as a medical doctor (presently from Norway) although his approbation was revoked years ago. Hamer's idea is that tumours are caused by conflicts, and patients only need a 'conflictolysis' to be cured. Hamer is a stout anti-semite who contents that 'Jewish doctors' applied GNM with 'Jewish patients' while using their fatal 'Jewish chemotherapy' on 'Aryans' to make them kick the bucket. Several patients of Hamer's died in great pain (pain medication is also not tolerated by Hamer).


So, hauntedfox, need a crash course in German language?

[Superdog]

Took a few more minutes to listen to a radio interview Renault conducted in the UK.

http://www.journeytospirit.org.uk/media/radio.mp3

There's a lot of separation from traditions here in the US while at the same time parallelling them.  He makes some outrageous claims.

Here's some of the things you'll hear:

*Established the first "Indian Studies" courses in the US ever.  
*Worked for the US government in conflict resolution...when asked which departments he worked with said.."all of them".  Claimed to work with all minorities.
*Native Americans are "Native American Indians" because that's what "they've" become....true followers of the "old ways" will call themselves "indigenous" (oh brother....where's that slapping forehead pic)
*Laughing at sweat lodges to hype his "mother earth lodges", makes claims that people who teach sweat lodges ask participants to be nude.
*Draws many differences/parallels between sweat lodges and mother earth lodges to hype his paid for mother earth lodge service as superior because it's more "gentle"
*Uses different names to try and separate what he does from Native Americans (i.e. not calling himself a medicine man, but a spiritual advisor, not calling a sweat lodge a sweat lodge, but a mother earth lodge)
*Describes a ceremony that will guarantee a vision in 4-11 days (in your sleep)



Not to mention he was brought up on the Turtle Mountain Chippewa rez and has a Lakota name (I'd have to leave it up to Lakota speakers here to decide if the name is even translated right....my guess is Renault doesn't speak any Lakota either.) and a completely superior attitude to any Native people here in the United States with the words he says, even disparaging true medicine men if they disagree with what he says AND makes the sad assumption that he teaches ALL Native American ways (i.e. "old ways) and doesn't stop for a second to inform people that with over 500 different nations, each with their own communal and tribal specific spirituality, that some tribes don't follow these ways at all and perpetuates the stereotype that what he teaches is an all encompassing "Native American Spirituality".  There is also the usual vagueness in his claims and doesn't give up any sources including names of people he learned from, where he went to school etc etc.

And for all of this lack of information...if you wanna learn you gotta pay for it......it's no wonder he only sells this stuff outside the US.  

Wrong on all levels.

Superdog

[hauntedfox]

No, didn't need a German lesson, I was merely making a slightly satirical comment on the quality of your evidence of fraud: that WNNC took part in a conference once . . 

taking part in a conference ? how hilariously damning  . . . !!!?!?!?!  if we'd had evidence of this calibre at Nurenburg we'd all be goose-stepping and speaking German now . . .

Nice one, hauntedfox. However, attempts to smear me won't get you far here, and they say more about you than they do about me.

Anyways, if it comes to cooperation with protagonists of the congress mentioned with the (Neo)Nazi scene, we shall have a closer look at one example: Bruno Würtenberger from Switzerland who makes regular appearances at these congresses.

German Wikipedia says about Würtenberger:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_W%C3%BCrtenberger

"[...] born Dec 24, 1960 in Zurich, W. is a Swiss author and consciousness researcher. He has previously worked as a cook, in hotels, and as a sailor. Since 1987, he has been working as a medium and healer and absolved a training as a personal and consciousness coach in the USA.“

Würtenberger meanwhile founded a „Spiritual School Switzerland“, „New Peace“, and „Free Spirit Training“ (founded in 2006).

This is an interview with Würtenberger dd 2002:
http://www.sektenberatung.ch/goto.php?link=27&end=pdf

The interviewer writes in an introductory paragraph:
„Würtenberger is an excellent example for the development of an esoteric, spiritual teacher. In the 1990ies, he saw himself as an authorized representative of a group of otherworldly beings and announced their message with the catchword of „friends of the light“. These messages were of a definite anthroposophic coinage. Würtenberger saw himself as a medium.

After having got contacts to 'Avatar', he merchandised his range of supplies as „Spiritual School Switzerland“. He now compares himself to high masters and gurus like Osho or Krishnamurti.“


Apart from making appearances at 'healer' congresses, Würtenberger also regularly cooperates with projects like 'Secret.tv' and 'Jeet.tv' where he advertizes with the help of interviews and so-called documentations. Both projects are more or less closely connected to the esoteric scene, in particular what is called 'brown esoterics' here, and provide 'information' on various rightwing extreme conspiration theories.

Secret.tv:
http://www.esowatch.com/ge/index.php?title=Secret-TV

The internet domain was formerly owned by Jan Udo Holey (son) and Johannes Holey (father). Both of them well-known protagonists in the Neonazi scene, Holey Jr. is a writer (aka Jan van Helsing) who combines (Neo)Nazi ideology and esoterics; he is a holocaust denier. Holey Jr announced his demise from the project in early 2010, but the project still works and 'reports' in their usual way (e.g. ufology, so-called alternative medicine, promotion of fraudulent cases of inedia – e.g. Ellen Grave aka Jasmuheen, conspiration theories). Most of the films shown are either videos available for free on youtube, some films and interviews done by secret.tv, as well as videos provided by various authors who intend to advertise their products or messages in this way.


jeet.tv
http://www.esowatch.com/ge/index.php?title=Jeet

Owned by Italian esoteric and black magic Robert Liuzzi who claims to have received the name 'Jeet' by Osho aka Bhagwan. Jeet.tv has offered a considerable platform to Neonazi 'Fuerstentum Germania' [Principality of Germania], a group of persons who firmly believe in the non-existence of the Federal Republic of Germany and thus founded their own state as a successor to the German Reich, using a run-down castle for their HQ, issuing their own passports. Of course FG also offered several persons unique possibilities regarding new 'jobs' in their 'provisional government'. Jeet.tv reported about FG on a daily basis up to April 2009. Liuzzi has also published black magic curses against critics and even called supporters to hunt down critics.

Liuzzi apparently also supports the so-called Germanic New Medicine 'invented' by Ryke Geerd Hamer who continues to work as a medical doctor (presently from Norway) although his approbation was revoked years ago. Hamer's idea is that tumours are caused by conflicts, and patients only need a 'conflictolysis' to be cured. Hamer is a stout anti-semite who contents that 'Jewish doctors' applied GNM with 'Jewish patients' while using their fatal 'Jewish chemotherapy' on 'Aryans' to make them kick the bucket. Several patients of Hamer's died in great pain (pain medication is also not tolerated by Hamer).


So, hauntedfox, need a crash course in German language?

[hauntedfox]

"There's a lot of separation from traditions here in the US while at the same time parallelling them"
well isn't that just the point? He isn't trying to bring indigenous culture to western people, he is following his own path and sharing it with others, he's not claiming its "Native American" or anything of the kind, just that he was shown the way by "the energies" and is working through it himself.

OK, so I like the bloke, he's easy going, gentle and good company, it makes me biased. You're biased too for some reason . . perhaps you guys al l think you have a global monopoly on spirituality? Sure you hate to see frauds and liars, agree on that one - but you seem to try so hard to turn everyone into a fraud or a liar just because they are prepared to share something of themselves and happen to have lived a human life after birth in an indigenous part of the US . . .

Do I really want to go through all your points one by one? I'll try . .

he presumably took his Lakota name from his Lakota parent (as opposed to his Ojibwa/Chippewa parent).

yep - I've heard of people insisting on nudity in their ceremonies, as you know in western magical (fraudulent) teachings this is usually a big warning sign, whats so bad about WNNC saying he's heard that people insist on nudity in ceremonies too and that he doesn't do so himself?

He makes the distinction that most sweat lodges are hot and a place to suffer, an ordeal to p[rove something, whereas the mother earth lodge is a place of healing and connection. He doesn't say he isn't running a sweat lodge, he just points out that his mother earth lodge is not the same as most other people's sweat lodges. He doest say its superior, just a different experience for a different purpose

Surely you guys would approve of him separating himself from Native Americans, since what he is doing isn't "traditional" and he doesn't claim it is! If he said it was you'd all say "fraud fraud fraud" but when he says it isn't you think this is also evidence of fraud fraud fraud !!!


The only two things you comment on that give real cause for concern is the use of tarps and the charging of money for events.

Firstly, western society does not permit one to live without money. organising events on land in the UK doesn't happen for free. Travelling to and from events (and in WNNC's case to and from the USA) doesn't come for free either. He's not sitting in a palace with a bunch of gold rolls royces outside, the guy lives very meagerly (I have seen first hand) and people are willing to pay money, there's no fixed charge, people pay what they can afford, no one is ever turned away . . its about the best compromise given the conditions in the Uk for organising events

Tarps - we're talking about black plastic sheeting, not heavy canvas tarpaulins. In my experience of WNNC's lodges there's a great deal more care of the wellbeing and physical safety of the people taking part than I've seen in some other places. So I['m not defending or condemning anything because I don't actually know, I have trusted WNNC when he's said its safe and its been my experience that it HAS been safe. That's really all I can say but I will read other posts about tarps on your forum.


In the end I'm sure you guys won't just turn round and say "you know, that fox guy has a point" . . neither will I phone WNNC up and say "you know, I'm not going to have anything to do with you anymore because I read that you are fake on a forum written by people who have never met you" . . .but this discourse IS valuable, we do have common ground and I'm willing to put my head above the parapet, even if you shoot it off my shoulders for me with no better weapons that conjecture, hearsay and what sometimes looks a bit like desperation or spite.

We ALL agree that there are folks out there pedalling nonsense dressed up as native or indigenous traditions, ceremonies and culture, people who have no connection at all with such things and no understanding of them, least of all the moral right to sell it to others as if they are gifted teachers. Funny enough we met such a person last week, she is off to set up her own copy of WNNC's lodge and is demented enough to think that by copying what he does physically she can replicate and sell what he does . . . this is the real fraud and its rife in certain circles, WNNC runs events which involve a hot, dark enclosed space and an attempt to connect spiritually with mother earth, with no claims of tradition or culture or inherited power to back up why it works, if others choose to call this a fake sweat lodge, then that's fine, doesn't actually bother WNNC or the participants . . .but the idiots pedalling fake dream catchers and drums printed with dodgy pixelated images they obviously stole from the internet are a world apart from WNNC and what he is about.

So, what is it that you guys are doing to follow your spiritual paths? What's YOUR story and what do you have to contribute to humanity ?

lets keep talking, ok ?

[debbieredbear]

How about you stop by the member introduction part and introduce yourself?  That way, we'd have a ebtter understanding of where you are coming from.

[hauntedfox]

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3326.0

 

How about you stop by the member introduction part and introduce yourself?  That way, we'd have a ebtter understanding of where you are coming from.

[snorks]

This question was asked:
So, what is it that you guys are doing to follow your spiritual paths? What's YOUR story and what do you have to contribute to humanity ?

---------
I don't think that is the point of my original query, of which I was the poster.  It doesn't matter what our spiritual paths are or how we contribute to humanity.

I had a deck of Cards that WNNC had written and published.  The cards with book was called "White Eagle Medicine Wheel" (published 1997).  In the book and cards, WNNC presented himself as "has an Ojibwa mother and a Lakota father and descends from a long line of medicine men and shaman. He is one of the few remaining Native Americans willing to share the original wisdom of the old way of life and, as a shaman and spiritual advisor, he offers sacred teachings appropriate to the western world in regular seminars and workshops.... He initiated the first U.S. Indian Studies Program and regularly lectures on the Native American way of life at colleges and universities."  I am quoting from the author's notes.

That statement and the subject matter of the book and cards set off alarm bells.  Within the book he discusses various topics such as "Sweat Lodge" and how to use totem cards - One spread is "Sacred Pipe."

Frank Black Elk, who identifies himself as "the grandson of the holy man and visionary, Black Elk of the Oglala Sioux" in the forward writes ""White Eagle Medicine Wheel' and its powerful deck of cards features animals and our respected elders, the grandfathers and grandmothers."

I surmised from that that WNNC was presenting himself as a Native authority on certain topics who was going teach White people these topics.
------------
Of course this is 2011, and a lot can change from 1997.  But the question remains is WNNC using his Indianess to sell seminars and the like or is that he is simply a Native American who is teaching on a variety of topics, which are unrelated to his ethnicity?  Could he be Irish or Polish, receive the same attention, and create the same authority in his teachings?  In short, would people be enthusiastic of his teaching if he was doing Finnish Saunas to promote good physical health?

[hauntedfox]

Valid questions.
As of now, 2011, WNNC tells me that he didn't like the way the publishers and his co-author presented the white eagle cards and he would like to re-issue them and do them / present them "his way".

No it doesn't matter what everyone else does, my question was semi rehetorical, born from frustration that there's a lot of negativity on these forums   . .  .of course reading more its pretty horrifying that there are so many negative idiots out there doing stupid / imoral / fruadulent things . .  I'm suggesting that WNNC isn't the worst offender if he's an offender at all . . 

yes, from what you've written it does seem WNNC is indeed presenting himself as an authority on native practices, I have to concede that . . . it follows from this that he is "trading" on this authority for what he is teaching people . .  which is, as you all know, not such a good thing as doing it all for free . . .

so I conede the point about him claiming authority by virtue of what he has learned in his life as an indian . .  BUT   what he is teaching people isn't indian spirituality, its his own spirituality (which is obviously influenced by his ethnicity) and his message is for people to discover THEIR own spirituality for themselves, which is what I think makes him more noble in his aims than many others who want to establish themselves as gurus . .  .    If he WAS teaching some arcane culturally Finnish practice and claiming to be Finnish but wasn't actually a Finn himself, that would be wrong, but he can't (and shouldn't) disguise his ethnicity . . .  sure it forms part of his teaching and his outlook but he IS indian and he ISN'T trying to con white people into thinknig they are indian as others seem to be doing (this practice of claiming adoption into a tribe for instance and the common claim among white teachers that they "studied with the elders" as if this gives them any authority


all good questions and all worth considering.   No one is perfect, those that teach raise themselves up for ridicule, abuse and accusation . .  perhaps just by being indian WNNC makes himself a bigger target, perhaps because what he is teaching people is indian in its aspect he is also making himself a bigger (easier?) target . . .  did he have a genuine spiritual experience/awakening and a calling to teach ? Maybe, maybe not . . the point I think is that he isn't telling people that his teachings are all native american secrets that he is the great guru who can impart to them, as he often says "if my message doesn't speak to you, move on, find your own message . .  .if it does . . . move on, find your own message anyway" .  .I think thats what sets him apart from many of the others who appear, at first glance, to be the perfect cannon fodder for forums such as these . .

[nemesis]

Tarps - we're talking about black plastic sheeting, not heavy canvas tarpaulins.

O
M
G

*facepalm*

[educatedindian]

Valid questions.
As of now, 2011, WNNC tells me that he didn't like the way the publishers and his co-author presented the white eagle cards and he would like to re-issue them and do them / present them "his way".

.BUT   what he is teaching people isn't indian spirituality, its his own spirituality (which is obviously influenced by his ethnicity) and his message is for people to discover THEIR own spirituality for themselves, which is what I think makes him more noble in his aims than many others who want to establish themselves as gurus . .  .    If he WAS teaching some arcane culturally Finnish practice and claiming to be Finnish but wasn't actually a Finn himself, that would be wrong, but he can't (and shouldn't) disguise his ethnicity . . .  sure it forms part of his teaching and his outlook but he IS indian and he ISN'T trying to con white people into thinknig they are indian as others seem to be doing...

1. Nonsense. A publishing contract isnt something arcane you have no control over. Im published myself on an academic press. The author has the final say. And if you dont like it then dont sign.

If he truly feels that way, then post an online disclaimer.

2. Oh please. If he were not NDN, no Englishmen would give him the time of day. He trades on his ethnicity, plain and simple. If he truly wanted to teach his own beliefs, then dont say a word about being NDN.

Also as a sidenote, knock off the personal attacks on members here, and on Ntives in general, esp when theyre ridiculous twinkie cliches we all know arent true and only show you dont understand as much about NDNs as you think.

[hauntedfox]

personal attacks ? where?
ridiculous twinkle cliche we all know are untrue? Where?



Publishing - not getting into this, if you ask WNNC himself he'll tell you how they stitched him up. I'm in the music business myself, know how these things work, how unscrupulous publishers and distributors get round royalty clauses by selling stock as clearance to their own sister companies etc - still locked in conflict over this, not legally advisable to go rubbishing a product he contractually tied to and contractually obliged to promote - note he doesn't sell these cards on his own website

agree with you, if WNNC wasn't NDN he wouldn't get the attention he does from English people. What I'm saying is that he isn't doing as others do and making it his primary selling point, no long list of elders he's studied with, no claims of how important he is in his own tribe etc etc -

thanks for all listening to me, thanks for all the advice and information too, still wish you guys would go harder after the real bad guys (the molesters, the outright blatant conmen (and women)) and all the rest, who are doing far more harm than the likes of WNNC

[Cetan]

Earth7 - the person being talked about in this thread WaNaNeeChe is supposedly from Turtle Mountain, any of your relatives there ever heard of him?