"But people never donate enough"

[educatedindian]

Stumbled on this statement from a Wiyot/Shoshone man, a member of the tiny Elko Colony in Nevada. I doubt if they have more than 150 people, so it's interesting to see his answer to the claim it's OK to charge.

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Monday, July 10, 2006
Dear Ladies & Gentlemen,
In this day and age, there are times that I wonder of the Indian World and if Indian people sincerely believe in it anymore, especially when I see so much abuse and misuse of ceremonial and medicinal activity, mainly by a people who have no form of respect, dignity or honor within.

In my own mind I feel and think that faithful and genuine medicine people, spiritual leaders, prayer persons are becoming extinct, as well I notice that there are still cliques of fakes, frauds and phonies, a people who put the value of money above everything.

Yes, it is obvious that we live in a society were dollars and cents is a huge factor in how we must survive, that I realize and understand very well, but I also notice that greed and disrespect is slowly replacing the authenticity, strength and might of our ancestral customs and belief’s.

In some manner of speaking, I seem to detect a depraved tremor in the hearts of some of our Indian people, a depravity that has been encouraged through false and misleading perceptions, a form of intelligence that represents confusion, falsehood and assimilation.

Yesterday, our people were true to the ceremonies and medicines, today it seems as if a people will lie, cheat and steal to prove how pious and how devoted they are to a matter of spirituality that they actually have no idea will in the end prove how wrong they were as it slowly replaces what they
feel was good with a dilemma of unfortunate events for them and their family

When people vote and elect counterfeit intelligence, they must suffer the consequences of their own actions, that is they must not battle the error of their own judgement, because once the idiocy takes shape and begins to perform in a manner of selfishness and conceit, the foundation for corruption and treachery has already been created and unless it can be stopped in its early stages it will grow beyond reach and control.

Throughout Indian Country, tribes have seen the error of their judgement in voting and electing a form of inexperience intelligence to their tribal councils, an inexperience that is praised by weakness and imprudence.

Inexperience equals failure and unless that failure can be observed quickly, there will not be much of anything positive that will be able to slow it down and it will move forward with an ego of pure arrogance and surety, not caring what is put in its path.

Failure ignores the values of the culture and belief’s, it distorts their values, it destroys truth, honesty and the heart, but most of all, the failures that are voted for and elected to tribal councils will do all they
can to wipe away the identity of the American Indian and replace it with full Assimilative Factors relevant to the Non-Indian World.

As the World ventures forward in time, slowly there will be American Tribes that will close the door on their past, but not only will cultures and ceremonial ways be forgotten, but the blood-line of the American Indian will have vanished upon the wind leaving only pages of history of a people who so
very long ago were indeed Warriors of a Noble Race of People.

In the mean time, if you honor your Tribe and Nation, if you appreciate your Tribal Customs and Ceremonies, if you cherish your Tribes Culture and History, then do not allow people to eradicate your Ancestral values and replace it with deceit, lies and distorted views and opinions.

The future of your children and grandchildren should be intact with the strength of the ancestral culture and belief’s, intact with ancient values that evolve from the heart, soul and mind, not from false and foolish intelligence, not from irrelevant arrogance and illicit surety and not from greed or self-covetousness. Let your Nation or Tribe be recognized with pride, dignity and honor, where Civil and human Right’s indeed represent the Sovereignty of your people, for the Sovereign Right’s of your Nation is a Great Power!

This e-mail composed posted by Larry Kibby - Wiyot Indian
From the Elko Indian Colony in Nevada
Larry's Reznews Blog - http://reznews.blogspot.com
Shoshone Spirit - http://Shoshonespirit.blogspot.com
Larry's American Indian Blog - http://lkibby1.blogspot.com

[AndreasWinsnes]

I have a question. If followers of a spiritual way say that charging money for spiritual services is wrong, while they at the same time believe that it is alright that they themselves take money for spiritual work because they are in a weak position caused by persecution over the last centuries, then can't followers of other spiritual paths, like Neo-Paganism, use the same argument to justify that they charge money for their services?

Should one not follow the same standard one recommend others to follow?

Or can one argue that todays Neo-Paganists are a part of the ruling class, they enjoy white privileges, so they don't have the same right as still oppressed Natives to charge money for their services?  

Thank you for the information and kind words, Moma_Porcupine.

[Moma_porcupine]

Andreas , I am not sure what was said that gave you the impression anyone was saying ;

" it is alright that they themselves take money for spiritual work because they are in a weak position caused by persecution over the last centuries "

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are asking ?

Everyone has repeatedly explained it is common decency to cover the expenses of someone giving Spiritual support or assisting in healing and that it is traditional to give some sort of gift to a person who assists in healing . Giving a gift or accepting a gift is not the same as being charged or charging .

Think of the gifts that are expected to be given as a part of Christmas or a birthday or a wedding or house warming. It might be as little as a card or as big as a new car . It is entirely up to what feels right to the giver , and the situation and relationship. In Native communities , I have seen things given by family members , in appreciation of assistance recieved by other family members , many years before . To put this another way , you will hear
it explained , "there is no set fee" .

I hope it was not my words that created this confusion.

When I said ;

"More and more I see exhausted people just giving up , and saying maybe it is all OK .

But that is not what people realy think or feel , they just are trying to pick their battles ."

I did not mean I know any traditional people ? , who think it is OK to charge , though in every community there seems to be a couple deviants , who are NOT traditional , even though they claim to be , and may have been taught by people who were . What one Elder had to say about one of these people ; ? " There is always one bad apple who ruins it for everyone" .

What I was trying to explain is that for a variety of complex social reasons these bad apples often cannot be vigorously thrown out. ? Often it is too hard to separate the metaphorical baby from the metaphorical bath water . But their damaging behavior is also not approved of . ? I have noticed this evolving into an increasingly common attitude in younger urban Native people that maybe sometimes charging is Ok , because people who do this , for one reason or another , have not been vigorously thrown out , like we do with bad apples .

So their behavior gradually seems to be seen as less and less of the aberation that it is .

There are so many reasons the behavior of charging for prayer and traditional ceremonies is damaging , this growing attitude of , "Maybe it is OK " concerns me .

Hope this clarifies any misunderstandings my words may have created !

[AndreasWinsnes]

Andreas , I am not sure what was said that gave you the impression anyone was saying; ...

Weheli said the following:
 

And may we NEVER forget the history of the attempted genocide of our people and the VERY HARD ROAD that our moccasins have had to travel.

And you also said:

More and more I see exhausted people just giving up , and saying maybe it is all OK . ?
 
But that is not what people realy think or feel , they just are trying to pick their battles .
 
No matter how good a person may be , if they are living in a community going through a famine , a war or a plague , their lives will be affected by this

That made me consider whether it maybe is fair to make a difference between rich and spoiled new agers and Natives who still struggle after a genocide. I have no right to tell Natives what to do or give advice, especially since Norwegians was a part of the genocide on your people - that makes me really ashamed - but new agers will criticize any percieved double standard, so that is why I asked the questions I did in the last post.

I am aware of the difference between gifts and charging.

There are so many reasons the behavior of charging for prayer and traditional ceremonies is damaging , this growing attitude of , "Maybe it is OK " concerns me .

I see now what you mean. Thank you for the clarification. I certainly caused some of the confusion. Anyway, I really appreciate what you and the others are doing to give people information about the traditions. ?

[Moma_porcupine]

Andreas;
I speak only from the point of view of someone familiar with the territory on both sides of the fence . I care , and I see people getting hurt on both sides . I like to think that we might be able to improve the situation , through communication , and because I am familiar with both sides , perhaps by drawing parrelels between things in non native culture that are similar to things in Native culture , so people will not be so easily confused and possibly led astray. ?

I want to be clear, I am in no way qualified to give any cultural information or advise to anyone , except to point out some of the most very basic common sense teachings and values , which often exist in non native culture as well. If I ever go beyond this , I hope someone will ask me to keep my opinions to myself ... Because that is all it would be .

Anyone posting thoughts on an internet forum , should be considered with a skeptical mind , and esp. people posing as porcupines .

Take care

[educatedindian]

More from Larry Kibby
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Wednesday, July 19, 2006
Losing the Ancestral Intelligence?
The wisdom, knowledge and understanding of life in which our ancestors held in high esteem is quietly being replaced with ego, selfishness, vainglory and shrewdness, to put it mildly, political corruption and fascism.
Indian Country is beautiful, a land full of a sacredness, harmony and authenticity, an originality of life put in place so many centuries ago, a form of unique unity of land and people and the intelligence it embodied was majestic.
Like a well orchestrated symphony the Indian’s way of life was full of realization, a fulfillment that was in relation with all that lived and provided eloquence for one another and then time and man would change the relationship with an arrogance that had no foundation or respect for neither the Indian or the land and quietly the intelligence of the ancestors would seemly vanish upon the winds.
And the sacred songs that once echoed through the valleys and mountains while the harmony played a symphony through the winds, the trees, medicine plants, natural foods and all other pure life forms, now is slowly dissolving into a sound of modern progress, yet the intelligence of the ancestors continues to echo a slight verbalization upon the winds that seems to say, "keep alive a matter of hope, keep the heart strong."
Yesterday a people respected all of life, for then life was a value, a system of unity and a bond, a togetherness in which each one would provide for one another, a giving for a means of survival and over time each direction lost a means, a respect and a relationship and the ancestral intelligence, although an inner strength would be weaken by dollars and cents.
The voices of these contemporary times speak of a prize for all who will more or less sell the land, betray the ancestral rites, peddle the heritage, trade the history that lay upon the land for a style of life that has no means and ignores the intelligence of the ancestors.
Yet, there is a traditional element that refuses to betray the ancestors, elders, spiritual leaders and medicine people who will not walk away from the belief, the faith and hope that has kept our people together for thousands of years and they know of their own kind that has voiced resentment and who encourage alienation from the culture and belief’s.
While father sun rises in the sky, a people walk upon the concrete selling their pride, dignity and honor, fabricating ancient discipline, flaunting and exaggerating about a aristocratic style of life that is nothing more than a step into a perdition, all the while plagiarizing, lying and forsaking their own people, most of all abandoning their own heart and family.
And while the Holy Ones and Grandfathers awaken the sky with streaks of lighting their voices rumble with thunder and the winds like a dark soul descend upon those who challenge the ancient power and the tears of the relations fall onto a land like a flood of condemnation and through the fierce flashes of lighting the ancestor beckon the spirits of the Old Warriors who gather before the eternal fire pit to carry forth the glowing torch of life of upon the land that is desecrated by greed and those who worship evil, adulteration, debauchery, depravity and greed.
And those who shall walk with the selfishness, deceitful, exaggerators and thieves shall find a darkness where the heart is not embraced, where the spirit of the ancestors is weakened and nearly forgotten, and those who turn from authenticity and sincerity shall stumble before the traditions because the intelligence of the ancestors is a beacon of power within the universal realm that has been a guiding light for our people for thousands of years and though a people will leave their ancestral culture and belief’s, they know not nor realize that the Indian World will live forever through the Ancestral Intelligence.
This e-mail composed and posted by Larry Kibby
From the Elko Indian Colony in Nevada
Larry's Reznews Blog - http://reznews.blogspot.com
Shoshone Spirit - http://Shoshonespirit.blogspot.com
Larry's American Indian Blog - http://lkibby1.blogspot.com

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

I enjoyed reading this thread.  The point to me is, a gift is a gift and a gift is meant to be given. Who charges someone to receive a gift?  Do I charge my sister when I hand her a gift for her birthday?  The newage folks have come up with so many justifications for charging.  The 'need' basis for charging ie:  I need money to pay my bills is bad enough, but the excuse I dislike the most is the karma.  They have to charge money otherwise karma is created, because you will 'owe' them for the gift!  It's ludicrous!

Anyway, I know it's not traditional NA (karma that is) but..  oh well.  It's still ludicrous.

I agree with statements I read here though, about supporting the spiritual system that is supporting you, the community, the people. 

[earthw7]

ric the same here on the rez, we have our people come for healing we find a place for them to stay
and their helpers whether it is in someone home or the hotel which one of eople who ask for the
ceremony will pay their rooms, then after everyone brings food and if they stay a few days everyone
send food to them. When they are done the families give gift to help them which both in food and blankets
for them to take with them. the people who ask for the ceremony try to help pay for gas money to home on.
Some of our spitiuality leaders here have cars that really ae falling a part so people will help fix their cars
well they are here. we help the best we can.
WE NEVER PAY FOR CEREMONY!

[Ric_Richardson]

Tansi;

Earth- I have noticed that many non-native people have gotten the idea that Traditional healers should only be given tobacco and prints, which though important, do not recognize the modern needs of people living with having to pay for gas, power, food and other things that require money.

I was taught that, in order to truly benefit from the Gifts of others, shared with you, you must pay some form of price, although not always in money.  Up here, it is also common for Aboriginal people to continue to look for what the healer needs and make their offerings accordingly.  In our own situation, we pick many of the plants in our region and often share these with those healers that pass through our country, to help with their work.  Vehicle repair is another way that many people will help, to make it possible for those involved in the Medicine Circle to continue their valuable work.  We keep all of our old tires, which still are useable, also to give away to help with this.

When there is appreciation, there will always be consideration given to the needs of our Traditional healers and helpers, especially if the person feels that they have benefitted from their work.  We believe that the Creator always provides the needs for the continuation of the work, not likely to make a person rich, but sufficient to their needs.

Ric