The United People of the Cherokee Nation

[William_Graywolf]

Ok.  I'm concerned.  This group is asking for a copy of a person's BIRTH CERTIFICATE.  The website says passport, but when you download the application, they ask for your BIRTH CERTIFICATE.

http://www.theupcn.com/files/PDF_Member_Application.pdf
http://www.theupcn.com/index.html


Worse, I didn't see the real name of this "Chief Speaks with Spirits" name.  Someone did tell me HER name is Angelia Rose.  The group was contacted about their website posting that they asked for Birth Certificates and they did take that down.  

Don't people realize that a person who has your birth certificate can gather information about you?  Your birth certificate can be sold and someone can easily steal your identity with it.  

What sets up alarm bells for me is why this "Chief" doesn't use her real name on her website?  Why conceal who she is?  I wouldn't want to send in my Birth Certificate to someone I don't even have a name for.  

The application also asks for a donation of $25 for membership.  MONEY always talks and gets people fake cards that aren't worth the paper they're written on.  

I'm curious as to what anyone else knows or thinks of this one.

William

[nighthawk]

- removed by author -

[educatedindian]

The UPCN does some amzingly similar things to the UCN. Both have the same would be "clan"=state organization setup. I wonder if they aren't simply yet another bunch trying to set themselves up as head of all the PODIAs.
All the requests for information have me wondering as well.
If you look at the list of "chiefs" the only one using his real name seems to be Rice Lareaux. His name shows up on a historical reenactors board asking for hunting information.
Also notice Joe Bear Warrior's email, boricuawarrior. Obviously Puerto Rican, no idea how he claims to be Cherokee.
The store only sells their IDs and asks for donations.
Also notice this from their site:
"I also have the privilege of knowing some fine people who have a
red heart and even though they do not actually have Cherokee blood in their
veins, their hearts are pure and sincere.  They have a deep desire to keep
the Cherokee ways alive and thriving and we welcome those people as well."

In other words, whites playing NDN, come on in, we'll take your money.

And this:
"Even our own people sometimes put us down because they say unless your ancestors walked on the Trail of Tears, then you aren’t as good.  I ask you, does a Jew say to another Jew that unless your ancestors were in a concentration camp, then you do not have the right to claim your Jewish heritage?"

Actually many Jews say you are NOT Jewish unless your Jewish ancestry comes from the mother's side.

THis does seem to be a very recent group, note that the counter for the site only shows 200 visitors.

[weheli]

Have been doing some research on this bunch. I agree this certainly looks like an identity scam. Asking for all this info., esp. the birth certificate, will give them all rights to your indenity, esp. with asking eye color ect..

Principal Chief Speaks with spirits; the phone number doen't exsist. I called this morning and it said ,"no longer in service". The address is a business address in Chillicothe,OH.

Following Clan Listings, which once again is an internet "Tribe".

Chief Richard Whitehorse AKA, Kandy Cook, Cameden, IN, not Delphi, IN.
"Chief of" ILL,IN,MI,WI,KY.

Chief Audie Siverfox: Unable to find name, PH# doesn't exsist. Address is a business. "Chief" of MD

Chief Joel Wiseowl; AKA, Donna Nichols, all information given is correct."Chief" N.C..

Chief Edmond GrayHorse; AKA, Edmond Nichols, all information correct. "Chief" OH.

Chief Joebear; AKA, Joe Gonzales, all information correct. "Chief" CA.

Chief Rice Lareaux; AKA, Ken Dodson, Krickett Dodson(listed at same address). "Chief" TX,ARK,MS,OK.

Chief Wren Usti Alitamu; Phone# does not exsist, Lives in Grant Pass, Oregon, NOT Wolf Creek, OR. "Chief" Washington,OR..

A lot of wrongly stated info.. The way these clans are set up is not Cherokee, I find many things phoney here.

                                                                Wado Weheli

[Bear Warrior]

I have read through this and would like to respond. First off some of you have made some mistakes in your research. For example Wren has a place in Grants Pass and in Wolf Creek so you are half correct there. As for the birth certificate it has been stated that anything that you feel could be insecure blacken it out. All they want to see on the copy of the birth certificate or drivers license is your name. You can cross everything else out. I am Joe Bear Warrior Gonzales. Now someone said that my e-mail address is boricuawarrior@yahoo.com. Obviously a Puerto Rican so how can he claim to be Cherokee. Yes you are right I am half Puerto Rican and very proud of it. Okay now that you know that I am half Puerto Rican let me let you in on a secret. I am half Cherokee and very proud of that too so yes I have every right to claim to be Cherokee. The United People of the Cherokee Nation is not a scam group. I am very proud to be a part of it. We are trying to unite our people together and I do not understand how that is a scam. If you can explain that to me please explain that to me. My e-mail address is on the 6th line of this post. As for Chief Speaks with Spirits. Her name is Angie Rose and she lives in Ohio. I live in California. As for educateindians reply I personally take it offensive for you to say that we are whites playing indians. You do not know us so why do you make comments like this. Well thank you for listening. If any of you would like to talk with me directly you can contact me at boricuawarrior@yahoo.com. I will answer any questions that you may have.
Bear Warrior

[educatedindian]

Read what I said again, Joe. I said you were a group *taking money from whites who play NDN*. And your own group's website admits to doing that.

For the most part I think the leaders of your group are a mix of the blind leading the blind, and the half blind trying to fleece the completely blind.

You could claim your heritage, but none of what you are doing is part of it. Hiding behind "I want my heritage" doesn't make taking people's money, or asking for information that could only be used for wrong, any less wrong thing to do. Your actions are wasichu, not Cherokee or NDN. For so called chiefs, you don't have much knowledge. You are doing things even your average NDN child knows are wrong.

The right way to claim your heritage would be to go to actual Cherokee and listen and learn, not try to set up a phony "tribe" with phony "clans".

[Bear Warrior]

I have a question for you brother. Are you Cherokee? If so why do you use Lakota words? Just wondering but then since you are so educated you already know this. You are making assumptions brother that you do not know the facts of. If you look at the site it says something to the effect that the 25.00 goes to help with the printing but it is not mandatory. I am paraphrasing of course but this is the message so if you are Cherokee and would like to become a part of UPCN keep your money. We are not out to steal someones culture nor are we trying to fleece people's money. To be honest I myself am planning to publish a book and use the money to help build UPCN. No one has asked me to do this. I am doing it because I know what UPCN is about and what we are planning to do. In fact we are trying to help and not hurt others. So I ask are you Lakota? If not then why are you using Lakota terminology? I understand that you are Mexican and Apache. Am I correct? Why not learn of your Mexican and Apache ways and use the words that they use. My fiance is Apache and Mexican as well so I have no qualms with you. I only want to try to get you to understand that in many ways we are our own worst enemy. We are as I stated before trying to help others and not hurt others. I hope that you are trying to do the same brother.
Bear Warrior

[educatedindian]

You really haven't been around other NDNs that much, have you? If so, you'd know people from practically every nation say wasichu, just like many also say aho, no matter the tribe. Or hasn't your fiancee clued you into this? Perhaps she's never been around many except for you and her family. My experience dealing with the people in these would be tribes is they tend to be made up of people whose experience has been being the only NDN in the area they live in.

So not having ever been in a situation where most of the people around you are NDN, you make assumptions and do things more like a boy scout troup who play at being NDN than any actual organization of Native people. Like some of you calling yourself "chief" when you haven't earned the right. Gotta have that title to impress the even less knowledgeable, right? Couldn't call yourself president of the Cherokee Heritage Assn of Idaho or Washington or Maryland, could you?

So your leaders have just gotta be "Chief of the Would Be Tribe of Cherokees Separated From Their Heritage Who Don't Realize They Look Foolish and Disrespectful" instead.

Think of it this way: If you wanted to form a Puerto Rican heritage group (or I or your fiancee formed a Mexican heritage group), we'd call it that, wouldn't we? We wouldn't call ourselves "The Puerto Rican (or Mexican) Nation" and call ourselves Aztec or Mayan emperors or Taino caciques. THAT is just how pretentious and ridiculous your group looks.

And no legit heritage group asks for passports or birth certificates. Period. Doesn't matter if part of the information is sent blacked out, they can still be used for less than ethical purposes. Sheesh, your pride (and I mean personal pride, not cultural) is getting in the way of common sense.

[Bear Warrior]

I am not going to sit here and argue with you brother. To answer your question I have been around Native Americans all of my life. But that is neither here or there. The reason that I ask is because not all Indians use the term wasichu (spelling may be wrong). I use the word Yonega or Unega myself but that too is neither neither here or there. I just trip out that their are so many people that want to sit in judgement of others. Yes I am proud both personal and cultural. I will not lie about that. Why should I? I am a very proud person. By the way I did not title myself chief. Again that is not important. Like I said I will not sit here and argue. I have much more important things to do. I only tried to clear up a few things and then you all of a sudden get all defensive. I tell you what I ask that you pray for me and I will pray for you and hopefully one day we will be able to join forces and bring unity to our people while helping them overcome poverty, depression, alcoholism and all of the other things that we lead the nation in. One day brother we may find ourselves standing side by side fighting against these things instead of against each other.
Bear Warrior

[educatedindian]

"I am not going to sit here and argue with you brother."

What arguing? We were just talking.

"To answer your question I have been around Native Americans all of my life."

Ok, now I think you're not being truthful, or you would've said Indians. Whites tend to be the one to say NA.

"I just trip out that their are so many people that want to sit in judgement of others."

Oboy. There you go using the word judgement to mean "using your brain", the exact same way Nuagers use the term.

"Yes I am proud both personal and cultural. I will not lie about that. Why should I? I am a very proud person."

You miss the point. Your personal pride won't let you admit to being wrong.

"By the way I did not title myself chief. Again that is not important."

 

Since when?

"you all of a sudden get all defensive."

Look up the word "projection" in a psychology book.

"I tell you what I ask that you pray for me and I will pray for you and hopefully one day we will be able to join forces and bring unity to our people while helping them overcome poverty, depression, alcoholism and all of the other things that we lead the nation in. One day brother we may find ourselves standing side by side fighting against these things."

You still don't get it. Learning false ways such as what your group teaches that resemble a boy scout troup more than any Cherokee tradition *is part of what causes* that depression, alcoholism, etc.

When people have a false image of NDNs, it makes it that much harder for them to see us as we actually are.

You still won't answer the main point, and that is because you know you're wrong. A tribe is a nation, and you can't just try to invent one on your own without weakening the nation already here. It's disrespectful and divisive.

You know it'd be wrong for you to up and declare yourself Chief of Your Own Bunch of Puerto Ricans. It's just as wrong to do for NDNs, "brother."

[Bear Warrior]

Now you want to play semantics. Pretty good brother. You say that I am not being truthful because I would have said Indian. Whites tend to use the term Native American. That is pretty funny brother but not very true. I know a lot of people full bloods who were born and raised on the rez. who refuse to call themself Indians. Why? I asked and they refuse to be called something that Columbus called them before killing them and that makes sense. Me I use Native American and Indian interchangeably.

Ask people that know me and they will tell you that the only thing that I call myself is a warrior. Need credentials. I fought on the battlefield. Being a war veteran qualifies me to call myself a warrior. Now back to the chief. You do not hear me calling myself chief although I was appointed chief.

Like I said earlier I will pray for you and I do hope that you pray for me brother. As a matter of fact why don't you pray for UPCN that Creator will teach us the right path since according to you we are out in left field. That is that Native American I mean Indian way isn't it brother?
Bear Warrior

[Al's note: Joe's childish insults were edited out.]

[Bear Warrior]

Okay I see how you guys play. You can call me a washischu and a liar and that is not childish insults. I did not insult you. I just confronted you but now I am throwing childish insults. We are through. I do not need to be accompanied by people like you. I will pray for you and that is all I have to say.
Bear Warrior

[Al's note: More of Joe's childish insults were deleted.]

[educatedindian]

Learn how to read Joe. I said your *actions* were wasichu, and I *asked* if you were being truthful.

We can all see your style. Huff and puff with a show of offended dignity to try and change the subject, and refuse to answer when asked if you're doing wrong.

[walking-soft]

 I guess I am confused here as to the last few posts. While I do not agree with the UPCN ,I do think we should treat all people as HUMAN BEINGS. I am interested in what Bear Warrior has to say about this group for that is how we gain insight into things.

I personally did not see anything that needed to be deleted in the first post that was edited. Questions were being asked by both, and by deleting, much is left to ones imagination.  As to the last post by Bear Warrior I did not note any deletion. I know Al this is not my forum, but I am just expressing my opinion here.

There is so much distention among all the Native Americans and the tribes, enrolled and non enrolled, state enrolled vs Federal enrolled even to the point that an article in indian.com, a statement was made that if you are not a Federal enrolled Cherokee, you are not Cherokee at all;
http://thunder-fox.com/mcclure.htm

You have within Tribes, Bands ect. the issue of you are not dark enough, you are to white so you aren't as much Indian as me ,and yes those with thier cards running around acting superior to those who are not federaly enrolled as though having a card makes them more "Indian". A gerat majority of those enrolled both state and federal do not know thier language or traditions, I have talked with them. They do not even know about thier heritage.

I for one am tired of all these things, our ancestors never ment for this to be. I am Cherokee and I have never used the word "wasichu", and lets not forget that great debate of what are we to be called, Indian, Native American, American Indians, First People? Personaly I call myself Cherokee and I could give a care about that almighty, coveted blue or white card to tell me who I am. It is in my heart, I know my ancestors and traditions and I practice them.

I think this alpha male or female is simply a pis... match. All of our rights are been taking slowly away everyday and I will put on my Warrior Armour and prepare to fight for my constitutional rights. One being the right to free speech, whether I like what is being said or not, one still has that right.

Thanks for allowing me to share my opinions.                     Walking-soft

[educatedindian]

The only thing I took out of Joe's comments were personal attacks that had nothing to do with the topic. Obviously to repeat them would defeat the whole purpose. Notice I still left up all the criticism having to do with the topic. If he wants to get personal with me, let him take it to IMs or email.

Even then it's pretty obvious Joe is doing all he can to change the subject. He knows, his girlfriend knows, and I know it would be wrong to run around calling yourself Chief of This Part of the Puerto Rican or Mexican Nation. But sadly I've seen my share of Latinos who are NDN mixedbloods as well who think cultural appropriation is OK when done by Latinos. You had Mexican students at the Univ of San Diego who though Monty the Aztec mascot was just fine for their sports team. And some Mexican students falling for people like Tlakael who teach that Atlantis is part of Aztec tradition. Joe is not much different.