Author Topic: Re: What's wrong with this picture?  (Read 19359 times)

Offline yellowthunder_bolt

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« on: July 14, 2006, 12:07:26 am »
Have been gone for a long time,but am back. I sure agree with Raven. In fact I was just looking over your disclaimer to new members: defamatory remarks, harassing, threating,invasive of a persons privacy, threatened lawsuits, all of which softspeaker star is guility of. To allow her to be part of this forum I feel goes against all of this.

How do we know the truth of things? She sure has not, to my knowledge made an apology to Raven or to the things said about this forum. How do we know that she has left this CKY?? I also agree that her comment about staying to help the people there, is contradictory to what went down  with Raven and all the abusive lies she spoke of Raven. To me behavior always speaks louder than words.

I must say an explanation is needed from softspeaker star as to these contradictions. An apology to Raven and the forum, I also feel would be an act in the right direction.
                                                             Thomas


Offline educatedindian

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2006, 05:00:07 pm »
No Raven, you are not in any danger of being kicked out. You did nothing wrong.

I don't blame either one of you for being upset. Star wrote to me several weeks ago, saying she had left the group. I asked her to come here, realizing that she could be a valuable source of information.

I'd like to also ask Star to apologize. What I hope to see from her is at least her explanation and her admission of all the wrongs she did.

If anyone wants to email me privately about this, go ahead. Partly this is my screwup for not asking Star to apologize first if she wants to be a member of NAFPS.


Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2006, 03:26:06 pm »
Raven , who also registered as Raven_walkingstick , and then reregistered Raven as Kwa-kwen;

I only recently realized Raven , who reregistered as kwa-kwen , is also Raven_walkingstick ! Shows how easy it is to get the wrong impression about people we only know on -line ! ?

I have always understood the function and purpose of this forum to be primarily educational and not a place to make friends . To expect a forum like this to be composed of all "safe" people seems like volenteering to fight forest fires and thinking you should not have to deal with any fire . Sorry to sound unsympathetic , but many of us have suffered damages confronting
frauds . There is no trash can to put people in , and our only constructive choice is to forgive , try to educate bad behavior , and build more positive relationships .

Not making assumptions about who people are , is just basic internet safty in any forum , and especially a forum like this, that deals with frauds and is constantly annoying people by exposing their lies . Unless I know a person and their community , I try not to assume , I know for sure who it is behind
a user name , or names , or what their motives are , or what they might do .

In this forum it is easy for anyone to register . I think the open communication is a good thing . ? It is educational to hear what other people think and why they do what they do .

As Barnaby already explained , in the discussion of anonyimity , it is impossible to verify everyones identity , not to mention motives . Understanding that people posting here need to be taken with a few grains of salt , and that what is said , should only be used as a basis for further critical enquiry , would seem to be common sense .

Even in real life , people are generally a mix of good and bad , and I do not have any difficulty supporting the good in people , and trying to educate and redirect the bad .

In reference to Weheli claiming that Raven is planning on becoming a "real Native teacher" , to Scarlets group ? ;

Raven , why would you imagine for a minute it would be helpful to anyone (except maybe your own ego ) to "teach" people who are currently using reference to Native teachers and teachings as a part of their business advertisements ?

Scarlet has been honest enough to revise her webpage to say her teacher ? "presented herself as Mohawk " . The teachings are now more correctly advertised as having been, ? "described to be Iroquois womans ways " , but she is STILL , in my opinion , using every alleged teaching , and every kind word given by alleged Native people , to justify and add Native flavour and possible legitimacy , ( in the minds of those who do not know better ) to an entirely non native buisness enterprise .

Raven , we are all a mix of good and bad , understanding and misunderstanding , and I have to say that if what Weheli says is true , your behavior sounds like it is about to cross the line from good to bad , and from wise to foolish . ? And Weheli , why do you seem to be supporting such bad judgement ? ?

Sharing any teachings or support you may have with people who are currently utilizing selected bits , of so called Native teachings ? , for use in a commercial buisness , ? and who are therefore , in the opinion of most Native people , exploiting these teachings , is just like giving money to an alchoholic on their way to the liquor store. You are just kidding yourself that you are helping anyone .

Except maybe your own ego ... Which is the same thing that motivates many people who are considered sell outs .

We all make mistakes sometimes , and I hope you will search deeply in your heart for why YOU are needing to do this ? . ? You have shared a lot of good things in this forum and I hope those good things will guide you now .

Take care

« Last Edit: January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2006, 02:08:51 pm »
Raven , you are correct about when you had to reregister as kwa-kwen ? . It was when the forum upgraded to YaBB2 and a lot of members had to change their user name .You posted in the introduction section that you had done this . However , you , Raven first registered as Raven_walkingstick , so Raven_walkingstick could join in the disagreement Raven was having with me , Moma_porcupine on the sale of sage and sweet grass . And both user names continued to be used in the conversation . I have no idea why this was done , but I did feel I had more people disagreeing with me than actually existed .

I expect this type of stuff to happen occasionally , when I post in an internet forum , and it just struck me as a bit ironic , that Raven would complain that more attention needs to be paid to members and their motives .

I was not suggesting people should have to tell who they are to post here , and I was only trying to point out that people can easily register and a user name could be anyone , so people posting on an internet forum , need to be cautious . That is the price we pay for open communication , which I think is a good thing.

Raven and Weheli , I have no idea what you are responding to in the rest of your posts . I am guess some of this is a defense against what Star said , but as I am completely unaware of what was said , your defense does not make a lot of sense . So what if your husband is said to be Apahe , and he is not . The rest of it sounds a bit power trippy , ( we are so Cherokee, and you do not know what this means , so we are smarter than you ? ) , and vaugly threatening with rattlesnakes bitting and talk of death being possibly interpreted as more than crossing over . I am not impressed .

As for your idea to teach people who have shown they do not understand even the most basic ? teachings of RESPECT . In my opinion , if a real Indian was to teach these people how to run with scissors , within a couple years they will probably find a way to sell this as a Cherokee running with scissors ceremony , that was taught to them by a woman who presented herself as a real Cherokee teacher . Raven ,you do not teach a child to drive when they can not see over the dash board , or give weapons to a person known to use them in crime .  I can only guess your motives but it seems so obviously a bad idea , foolishness and ego are all that come to mind . What I am saying has nothing to do with exclusion , but with basic common sense .

Offline educatedindian

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2006, 04:23:02 pm »
I left the little slap at me up, don't plan on deleting it. As I said before, a lot of this is my screwup, and so, go ahead, get out any anger or upset you have at me.

Weheli, my guess is that more people aren't speaking on this because they would've expected it to be commented on in the Introductions thread. Starting a new thread about Star, rather than making these points in the thread started by her, seems almost like talking about her off to the side.

I also have no idea why you first happily welcomed Star with open arms for exactly the same reasons I said she could come here (information on Edwards and welcoming someone who'd "wised up" to him) and then angrily reversed yourself in this thread.

Let me try and get straight what both Raven and Weheli are saying:

That former followers of a fraud shouldn't be here.
That possible current followers of a fraud shouldn't be here.
That people who've treated current members badly shouldn't be here.

We have former followers in here all the time, including several longtime members.

We've had current followers of frauds or questionable types in here all the time, including of that fake "Cherokee fortune teller" in Illinois/Indiana/Ohio you spoke out against. Also followers of the self appointed Cherokee medicine man/horse whisperer, and a would be shaman leading a pagan tribe, and of, guess who, Scarlet Kinney's followers.

I know the CKY put you through a lot, and I'm glad to confirm what you told Momma P. But you're not the only one. Me, for example. I get threats of violence and lawsuits all the time. The latest coming from a supporter of, guess who, Scarlet Kinney's.

Yet I would not say "How dare you?" to you and act the martyr and threaten to cut off all contact and question your motives or insult you, as you've done.

I have my concerns about you going to "help" Scarlet Kinney's bunch. If you can lead them away from frauds and the silly and even racist ideas Kinney has about NDNs, good luck.

But you know as well as the rest of us she will trumpet what you do as endorsement of her fraud ways, and wasn't she right all along, and come-on come-all, come-buy-my-GEN-U-INE-Native-teachings.

That traditional story about the snake is one you should think on long and hard when it comes to dealing with Kinney. Unlike with Edwards, you already know going in she's a fraud, a racist, and a ceremony seller.

If you still choose to play the martyr role, you won't be doing anything except giving Edwards a cause for joy.

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2006, 07:25:25 pm »
What happened to all the posts that were here written by Raven_walkingstick and Weheli ? ? They have been deleted with no explaination , and this thread does not make much sense without them .

Offline educatedindian

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2006, 08:47:54 pm »
None of the moderators did any deleting. Why the two of them would do this, I can only guess at.

Here's an additional irony: Star told me to post this apology from her.

------
You may of course post my letter of apology , I do not regret anything I said and am sincerely apologetic for being so deluded by these people. I have sent a letter of apology and stated why I was leaving to all the members.

I have apologized to all for my part in not seeing what was going on until I went to Ky. in March

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2007, 01:07:42 am »
This seems pretty minor , but being as there is so many strange claims being made about this conversation , I am posting this one paragraph taken from a larger post I saved on July 16 , 2006 .

This reply was written by Raven , in response to the concerns I expressed in what is now reply # 2 , after Weheli announced Raven was going to accept Scarlets offer , and go there to teach something . What exactly would be taught was never clear .  Nothing  other than this one paragraph , on this topic , was posted, to answer my concerns , or clarify what Raven was planning to teach Scarlets group . 

This was posted after what is now reply #2 , on July 16, 2006, 11:26:06 AM , and before the  next post , which is now reply # 3 ,  is dated July 17, 2006, 10:08:51 AM

Part of what I was responding to in reply # 3 is Raven's comments below ;

Raven
Quote
Let's see what else would you like to know about me? I'm a very open book.   
Forgiveness, yes all for it, we all make mistakes I make lots of them spend more time apologizing than I do anything else.
So why with the contridiction then? Do you not think Scarlet is not capble of change? So what now we pick and chose who
 is redeemable and who is not?
who can be taught things and who can not?
If I choose to share my personal experiences with people how does that make me an egomaniac? Or foolish? If so how?
If a person has a good heart and what I share can not be used for profit how does that make me foolish?
So whatever I want to share with people, then this is my understanding of what you have said, can only be shared to who?
People here? Know one wants traditions in here this is a fraud site.
I'm not a teacher I'm just a person that life has taught.
Now that a lot of my personal life is out here what else would you like to know?
I don't have time for foolishness or an ego. I've been sharing for a real longtime? First time I've been called foolish.
I have elders tho that would think I was foolish if they knew I belonged to a fraud site. Was taught long time ago don't mix
 spirituality with politics.

If anyone requires it , I could try and post a dated screen shot of the information saved from this post .

Here is a link to an archived webpage dated July 16 , 2006 , the same dates this convesation occured , showing Scarlet advertising Sweat Lodge ceremonies for $250 .

http://web.archive.org/web/20060716170816/www.thestandingbear.com/events.htm

Under the circumstances I don't think the concerns I expressed were unreasonable .

As I have said repeatedly , we all have blind spots from time to time - and relatively speaking , this disagreement did not seem like a big deal to me . It probably doesn't seem like a big deal to anyone else either. At least not as it actually happened .

I imagine people are getting really tired of hearing about it . Hopefully this will put it to rest .

frederica

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2007, 02:15:43 am »
Moma P, I missed the orginal text last year. But the text now makes as much sense as the material in the interview. It's just talk and doesn't reallly say much. If someone consiiders it valid information when the jargon just speculates and rambles it resembles tabloid press, much like the National Inquirer. From what little I read it has no substance.  I wouldn't concern myself with it  frederica

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2007, 02:35:47 am »
Well some people find the National Enquirer really exciting ... Don't be judgmental now     :D ;D ::)

frederica

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Re: What's wrong with this picture?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2007, 02:14:40 pm »
lol, but that's show biz, doesn't take much to entertain or be entertained.  frederica