The Red Record

[shkaakwus]

Shkaakwus
i just wanted to say thanks for all of your hard work and information you put into your posts here.I think there are alot of people out there who can make a much more informed decision about this hoax the "WO". When you use work such as the WO which has been surrounded in controversy for years and years, to support your research and it comes back to bite you in the ass, you have know one to blame but yourself.

You're welcome, bullhead.  I appreciate hearing this. 

[bullhead]

Mr.Grondine
in your post #162,you are talking about your 2nd edition book and some of it`s possible contents " mide tradition of shells and A NICE picture of birch bark scroll "
Mide teachings are meant for Mide people only.Birch bark scrolls are SACRED they should NEVER be photographed ,again these scrolls are not meant for the public they are not for sale or to be sold.DO you understand the word SACRILEGIOUS,is money and fame that dam important to you.

[BuboAhab]

Here is what the detractors do not want you to know or see.

1. Walam Olum was a series of Birchbark scrolls and notched sticks. These were translated by a Delaware Elder for George Copway.

2. These were sacred and used in a secret society. Sacred things should be kept private, and the detractors are doing everything they can to stop readers from learning about them.

3. The time period of these scrolls extends from prehistoric times of the "mound builders" to the present day.

4. Fortunately there were a few individuals in a time of genocide that recorded these scrolls and the Walam Olum (painted sticks)

5. The Sacred Scrolls by Dewdney can be seen here.
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Sacred%20Scrolls%20of%20the%20Southern%20Ojibway/?albumview=grid

6. The Walam Olum is an authentic birchbark example slightly discolored by the English language.

[shkaakwus]

There are no birchbark scrolls, no notched nor painted sticks.  All we have is the word of a notorious liar and snake-oil salesman (i.e., Rafinesque) that these things ever existed.  Somehow, he "lost" these "originals," just after publishing his book.  (How convenient!)  His "Dr. Ward" and "John Burns" have NEVER been identified!  

George Copway was a Christian Methodist missionary and convicted embezzler, who was given a published copy of the Walam Olum by anthropologist, Ephraim G. Squier.
    

[E.P. Grondine]

Mr.Grondine
in your post #162,you are talking about your 2nd edition book and some of it`s possible contents " mide tradition of shells and A NICE picture of birch bark scroll "
Mide teachings are meant for Mide people only.Birch bark scrolls are SACRED they should NEVER be photographed ,again these scrolls are not meant for the public they are not for sale or to be sold.DO you understand the word SACRILEGIOUS,is money and fame that dam important to you.

After my book was done, I saw a Canadian publication with pictures of the scrolls and a telling, and clearly the midewiwin had decided to share the tradition of the shells. There was also another earlier release by midewiwin that an Ojibwe friend pointed me to later on.

On this topic, some Ojibwe in Michiagn gave midewiwin scrolls to a doctor who saved them during a time of plague in the 1830's, and these scrolls were recently returned. Given the devastation of these plagues, and the general devastation of the Lenape, Rafinesque's acquisition account makes sense. I am not entirely satisfied yet with Oestreicher's work, and I think it would be worthwhile to leave this in "Research Needed".

As for my views on proper use, see my earlier post in this chain on Hopi, Navaho, and Zuni traditions. To my knowledge, my entire book had proper use.
But then I used to just simply pick up feathers, thinking that they were simply left there for me.

The European history of North America goes back only 400 years. What my work is about is extracting memories of long term climate cycles and comet and asteroid impacts from the traditions, so that those memories can be used to save lives in the future. Whatever our heritage, we're all here now.

Money? NASA receives 18,700 Million $Dollars per year, and they spend 3.5 of them on finding the next piece of junk before it hits, despite direct orders to them from the Congress to do it, orders which NASA management ignored. That number needs to be turned from $3.5 million into at least $20 million per year, and that money is important to me, and to you as well.

I also need enough fame to help make that happen.

That said, I often think/measure my time in lives per hour, or I can break it down into lives per minute if you'd like.

Now how many of those minutes do you want to waste with poorly considered words? As I've already said what I want to say about Rafinesque and Oestreicher's work, and actually said it a long time back, I'm going leave Bubo Ahab to educate you and Shkaakwus for a while.

Once again, the "Hopewell" mounds were made by Shawnee/Cherokee ancestors - Talega among them.  Not Sioux, not Lenape.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

[shkaakwus]

E. P. Grondine writes:

"Now how many of those minutes do you want to waste with poorly considered words?"
 
You've already wasted a good part of your research time studying a made-up work of fiction, thinking it held the key to some great historical mystery.
[Very long string of personal insults and attacks removed.]

[You've been cautioned about this before. Ironically you attacked a man who just asked you to choose your words more carefully. I ask you to show more maturity.]

[E.P. Grondine]

E. P. Grondine writes:

"Now how many of those minutes do you want to waste with poorly considered words?"
 
You've already wasted a good part of your research time studying a made-up work of fiction, thinking it held the key to some great historical mystery.
[Very long string of personal insults and attacks removed.]

[You've been cautioned about this before. Ironically you attacked a man who just asked you to choose your words more carefully. I ask you to show more maturity.]

Thank you for your edits, Educated Indian.  It's clear shkaakwas has something motivating him other than a search for truth, or for Lenape historical traditions, for that matter.

shkaakwus, factually you are wrong, as the Walam Olum plays only a small part in my work, and was relatively easy to come by. I remind you once again that both Heckewelder and Sutton's accounts of Lenape migration tradition remain, along with the archaeological sequence which I set out.

Another fact you are wrong about was what the purpose of my work, which I just set out for you.

If you examine the solar activity charts in the 2006 publication at this site
http://www.cdejager.com/sun-earth-publications/
you will perhaps gain a better understanding of part of what I researched for my work, and its scope and purpose.

Other material concerned comet and asteroid impacts, and the physical evidence of them and their effects on climate and on the peoples living here then, and their accounts of them.

I am still of the opinion that Oestreicher may have missed some of Rafinesque's sources, and perhaps his inspiration. For the time being I will hold with the Lenape elders who hold that the Walam Olum contains a "portion".

I hope that in the future I will receive the opportunity to examine Oestreicher's work in depth, including Heckewelder's sources for his lists of personal names toponyms, and ethnonyms. Perhaps if not me, someone else will receive the task. Whatever the result, I think that the exercise will be good for graduate students. That's one of the reasons why I'd like this left in "Research Needed" for the time being.

Finally, I am still not satisfied with Oestreicher's proposed Lenape adoption of Swedish/English word "pussy", or his proposal that they would then use it for a chief's name.

[shkaakwus]

Ed:

I haven't got the slightest interest in what you like to think about in your spare time, regarding asteroids, comets, and other catastrophic phenomena.  THIS THREAD is about the authenticity of the Walam Olum--NOT events in outer space which may, or may not, affect the Earth.  When you do manage to attempt relevancy, you write things like this:

"On this topic, some Ojibwe in Michiagn gave midewiwin scrolls to a doctor who saved them during a time of plague in the 1830's, and these scrolls were recently returned. Given the devastation of these plagues, and the general devastation of the Lenape, Rafinesque's acquisition account makes sense."

In fact, the state was Minnesota--NOT "Michigan."  The doctor worked in a tuberculosis sanitorium--there was NO "plague."  He worked there in the early 1900's--NOT the "1830's.  And, the doctor got an acquisition receipt from the non-Indian from whom he bought the scrolls.  He was NOT given them because he "saved" anybody.  The scrolls were returned by his grandson.  The doctor was Dr. Herbert Burns.  This COMPLETELY changes what you wrote from almost relevant to entirely irrelevant to the question of the authenticity of the Walam Olum.  What you wrote is, quite frankly, dishonest--from a scholarly perspective.  Yet, you're allowed (for God knows what reason) to continue this charade on this forum, while my posts, pointing out the irrelevancy of your arguments, are mutilated to the point of unrecognition by the administrator.  Take from this what you will.

See: https://mail.socsci.umn.edu/pipermail/ojibwe-net/2006-December/000290.html

[E.P. Grondine]

Ed:

I haven't got the slightest interest in what you like to think about in your spare time, regarding asteroids, comets, and other catastrophic phenomena.  THIS THREAD is about the authenticity of the Walam Olum--NOT events in outer space which may, or may not, affect the Earth.

First off, shkaakwas, its not my spare time, its my time, and I spent it in the manner I thought best. Given that all of us (including you yourself) are already passengers on spaceship Earth, your lack of interest in the planet you live on and the fates of the people living here in the past is unfortunate.

When you do manage to attempt relevancy, you write things like this:

"On this topic, some Ojibwe in Michiagn gave midewiwin scrolls to a doctor who saved them during a time of plague in the 1830's, and these scrolls were recently returned. Given the devastation of these plagues, and the general devastation of the Lenape, Rafinesque's acquisition account makes sense."

In fact, the state was Minnesota--NOT "Michigan."  The doctor worked in a tuberculosis sanitorium--there was NO "plague."  He worked there in the early 1900's--NOT the "1830's.  And, the doctor got an acquisition receipt from the non-Indian from whom he bought the scrolls.  He was NOT given them because he "saved" anybody.  The scrolls were returned by his grandson.  The doctor was Dr. Herbert Burns.  This COMPLETELY changes what you wrote from almost relevant to entirely irrelevant to the question of the authenticity of the Walam Olum.

See: https://mail.socsci.umn.edu/pipermail/ojibwe-net/2006-December/000290.html
[/quote]

Thanks for your correction as to the location - my memory is not as good as it was. Others here may read the article as well. Perhaps they'll note the red paint and carving, as well as the age of the scrolls, all key items which appear to have escaped your own notice, for some reason.

What you wrote is, quite frankly, dishonest--from a scholarly perspective.  Yet, you're allowed (for God knows what reason) to continue this charade on this forum, while my posts, pointing out the irrelevancy of your arguments, are mutilated to the point of unrecognition by the administrator.  Take from this what you will.

I'm sure others here will take from it what they will as well. And it is also dishonest from a scholarly perspective to try to include unsubstatiated claims along with those demonstrated, and to engage in perjorative.

As far as the moderators' actions, or for that matter my entire exchange with you here, I suppose it was just meant to be.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

[shkaakwus]

They didn't escape my notice.  And, they didn't escape Rafinesque's notice, either.  Where do you suppose he got the idea for his hoax?!

[E.P. Grondine]

They didn't escape my notice.  And, they didn't escape Rafinesque's notice, either.  Where do you suppose he got the idea for his hoax?!

Currently, from Dr. Ward of Pendleton, who passed through Lexington on his way to gain  land which had just been taken from the Lenape. But that is just my current estimate and I reserve the right to change my mind as I look at this further. Now where do you think Rafinesque got the idea that Lenape also kept scrolls?

[bullhead]

BoBo in your reply #167 you use the label DETRACTOR`S ,the way i see it Rafinesque`s is the real detractor he created a HOAX and you have tried to support that hoax by useing the lies of liars .
you also say that
" here is what the detrators don`t want you to know or see"

2,these were sacred and used in a secret society.sacred things should be kept private.and the detractors are doing everything they can to stop readers from learning about them.

First of all these ARE SACRED and you do not have a right to Determine what is or what is not SACRED TO US. and you don`t have a right to know or see.only Mide have that right ,you can look at the mide as secret but I see it as private.
there are only a couple of ways that an aboriginal person can become part of the Mide,you can not buy your way in ,you can not get grandfathered in, there are NO politic`s involved.YOU BOBO are a perfect reason why there is little or no tolerance for NON-NATIVES in our ceremonies,you seem to have an enormous since of ARROGANT ENTITLEMENT.I see the rest of your post as [Abusive language removed] as well.

[Make your points without getting abusive.]

[bullhead]

Mr.Grondine
in your post # 169 you suggest I look at other post`s in regards to your views on proper use.
if you are printing Mide teachings or printing pictures of Mide scrolls then you are WRONG,[Personal attack removed] ,you can sugar coat it all you want ,but you are wrong.you do NOT have the RIGHT to publish these sacred things.you should be placed in the fraud section.

you also state in this post " Im going  leave BuBOahab to educate you and Shkaakwus for awhile"
[Series of personal attacks removed] you use a hoax to support your work.

[If you get abusive one more time, you WILL be banned. This is your only warning.]

[shkaakwus]

They didn't escape my notice.  And, they didn't escape Rafinesque's notice, either.  Where do you suppose he got the idea for his hoax?!

Currently, from Dr. Ward of Pendleton, who passed through Lexington on his way to gain  land which had just been taken from the Lenape. But that is just my current estimate and I reserve the right to change my mind as I look at this further. Now where do you think Rafinesque got the idea that Lenape also kept scrolls?

Rafinesque NEVER said the Walam Olum was written on "scrolls," or that the Lenape "kept scrolls."  However, he learned about Indian pictographs written on birchbark (for both sacred and secular purposes) from reading about them in Heckewelder's Indian Nations, page 130, and Tanner's captivity narrative, pages 67, 254-5, 281-2 & 434--both of which books he had accessed BEFORE coming out with his fraudulent book.   

[E.P. Grondine]

Mr.Grondine
in your post # 169 you suggest I look at other post`s in regards to your views on proper use.
if you are printing Mide teachings or printing pictures of Mide scrolls then you are WRONG,SCREW your VIEWS,you can sugar coat it all you want ,but you are wrong.you do NOT have the RIGHT to publish these sacred things.you should be placed in the fraud section.

you also state in this post " Im going  leave BuBOahab to educate you and Shkaakwus for awhile"
who do you think you are you arrogant fool ,you and your sock puppet don`t educate people, you use a hoax to support your work.

First off, Mr. bull head, I didn't use ojibwe midewiwin materials in my book. Period.

The first release by midewiwin that I saw was at Mackinaw, in a Canadian book at the museum there. Again, an Ojibwe friend pointed me to an earlier release.

I certainly would not publish them in a second edition without being instructed to.

One) I never claimed any right to publish them.
Two) Bubo Ahab is not my sock puppet.

As far as my use of the Walam Olum... I remind you of what I knew of
Oestreicher's work when I did my research in 2000. Eminent scholars such as Brinton and Vogelin had been taken in by Rafinesque as well; I relied on their opinions.

That said, I still think Oestreicher missed some of Rafinesque's sources, a "portion".

I've stated my objections to Oestreicher's work as it now stands. Once again, the "Hopewell" mounds were built by Shawnee/Cherokee ancestors, not Sioux, not Lenape, in my opinion.

I give Heckewelder and Sutton's acounts of Lenape traditions as well, and they are beyond question by Oestreicher. They also appear to be beyond his understanding.

I have already cautioned others about using Rafinesque's work.