The Red Record

[BuboAhab]

Last I checked, there is no rule about editing posts, and adding relevant information.
Is that the best Bls can say in "rebuttal"? Bls case is based on Ad hominem, unscientific opinion, and nay saying.

[E.P. Grondine]

Simon Le Page du Pratz recorded the Natchez use of pictographs, and my current working hypothesis is that their usage was rapidly adopted by others. (Noted on page 389 of Man and Impact in the Americas. See also page 253 and following for other accounts of "Mississippian" mede.)

My current opinion is that is why the Walam Olum gets a lot more specific around 1,000 CE (AD). This date accords well with the spread of "Mississippian" Culture up the Mississippi River.

The Five Nations use of historical wampum as mnemnonic aides is ancient, including year counts. As I cited earlier here, we also have Sutton's account of Lenape medewak use of historical wampum, including year counts. I can not hazard a guess as to when the Lenape medewak adopted this technology.

I am enjoying the polite discussion here by others now more able on this matter.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
 

[bls926]

Bls's opinion :"No, your "picking berries" example is not valid."  is completely unsupported by any facts.

The phrase "picking berries" in allegorical uses in each ceremony and scroll is exactly the same.

Dont take my word for it, read the factual proof for yourself that three sources use the same phrase, symbol, and ceremony.

See also page 132, the Traditional History of the Ojibway Nation, by George Copway 1860.
http://www.archive.org/details/indianlifeindian00copw

Interesting to compare the walam olum symbols with this:
http://surledosdelatortue.free.fr/24WALAM.htm

It was a little difficult to check anything out in those "three sources", since only two were given; but I gave it my best shot.

I agree that the pictures in Copway's book are similar to those in the Walam Olum. Similar in the same way that all stick figures resemble each other no matter who draws them. I didn't notice any berries in Copway's.

The second reference is in French. It's impossible "to compare the walam olum symbols with this", since it is the Walam Olum glyphs.

Bubo, you've given me one reference with which to compare the Walam Olum, Copway's Traditional History of the Ojibway Nation, and that didn't pan out.

Again, please give an example where the Ojibwe, Lakota, and Lenape use the same word or symbol, with the identical meaning.

[BuboAhab]

Grondine reinforced a reason not to share the treasure of the Walam Olum with those unable to grasp the truth.  As Le Paige Du Pratz stated, "This is what makes them vividly conscious of the fact that they ought not to waste this treasure, and that the surest means of preserving it unaltered is not to entrust such a precious deposit to people who do not have the prudence necessary to make good use of it, or who in a little while would entirely deform it by additions or by omissions equally unfortunate to the truth."

Contrary to what Bls would have us believe, not all "stick figures" are alike. There is a marked resemblance between Ojibway Chief George Copway's glyphs and the Walam Olum glyphs. This is because the Walam Olum used Ojibway symbols with meaning.

For those who had difficulty locating sources:

1. Man and Impact In the Americas by Grondine is a most valuable source in this study.

2. Picking Berries is used in the Walam Olum in the 19th glyph. According to Napora, glyph 19 is translated as "picking berries".
http://surledosdelatortue.free.fr/24WALAM.htm

3. The context of the phrase is set out as described in the Delaware Indian Big House ceremony on page 143. Further supporting the context: Speck clarifies the Delaware phraseology includes the statement "Wampum is our heart" on page 64

4. The Delaware Chief by the English Name of George Copway sets out dozens of other glyhps used in the walam olum in his 1860 book entitled The Traditional History of the Ojibway Indians (Which I stated the walam olum glyphs should be compared with).
http://www.archive.org/details/indianlifeindian00copw

5. The Birchbark Scrolls of the Southern Ojibway sets out further symbolism of picking berries on page 103.
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Sacred%20Scrolls%20of%20the%20Southern%20Ojibway/?start=all

6. See also Native Heart Berry Basketry of the Ojibway;
http://www.simplybaskets.com/Native_American_Indian_Ojibwa_Strawberry_Heart_Berry_Basket.html

7. Historical Context for the time frame of annihilation of the Delaware by George Rogers Clark can be seen in George Rogers Clark's journal. This account verifies the placement of the Delaware in Piqua, Ohio, where the Piqua Ketika Figurines were found. And later in Indiana, Cahokia, Illinois, and Kentucky.
http://books.google.com/books?id=D2gOAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=george+rogers+clark

8. Lakota Winter Counts -  The Year the Stars Fell: Lakota Winter Counts at the Smithsonian by Greene is an excellent place to start in the study on these artifacts. Winter counts were also part of this pictographic language of the northern nations, which include countless parallels in symbolism to that of the Walam Olum.

9. Piqua Ohio artifacts from the Smithsonian are shown to be Ketika figurines in "Social Symbolism of Tribal Art" by Carl Schuster. This comprehensive work shows the Ketika Figurines and explains their cultural significance.
http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/walamolum.htm

[E.P. Grondine]

BuboAhab -

As near as I know, Mr Burrows "artifacts" are all frauds. Mr. Burrows was the jailer of Frank Joseph Collin, the organizer of the neo-Nazi marches through Skokie, who was later imprisoned for improper activities with young boys, and who emerged from prison to become editor of Ancient American magazine.

From the reports that I have read and seen presented, many people have had much time and money wasted trying to verify any of Burrows' claims, and to date they have not had any success.

Until Burrows proves any of his claims, it would probably be best to consider his "artifacts" as frauds. You will want to remove mention of them, so as to not compromise your citations of real artifacts showing WO symbols, or cast shadows on your sense of judgment.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

[bls926]

Grondine reinforced a reason not to share the treasure of the Walam Olum with those unable to grasp the truth.  As Le Paige Du Pratz stated, "This is what makes them vividly conscious of the fact that they ought not to waste this treasure, and that the surest means of preserving it unaltered is not to entrust such a precious deposit to people who do not have the prudence necessary to make good use of it, or who in a little while would entirely deform it by additions or by omissions equally unfortunate to the truth."

Contrary to what Bls would have us believe, not all "stick figures" are alike. There is a marked resemblance between Ojibway Chief George Copway's glyphs and the Walam Olum glyphs. This is because the Walam Olum used Ojibway symbols with meaning.

For those who had difficulty locating sources:

1. Man and Impact In the Americas by Grondine is a most valuable source in this study.

2. Picking Berries is used in the Walam Olum in the 19th glyph. According to Napora, glyph 19 is translated as "picking berries".
http://surledosdelatortue.free.fr/24WALAM.htm

3. The context of the phrase is set out as described in the Delaware Indian Big House ceremony on page 143. Further supporting the context: Speck clarifies the Delaware phraseology includes the statement "Wampum is our heart" on page 64

4. The Delaware Chief by the English Name of George Copway sets out dozens of other glyhps used in the walam olum in his 1860 book entitled The Traditional History of the Ojibway Indians (Which I stated the walam olum glyphs should be compared with).
http://www.archive.org/details/indianlifeindian00copw

5. The Birchbark Scrolls of the Southern Ojibway sets out further symbolism of picking berries on page 103.
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Sacred%20Scrolls%20of%20the%20Southern%20Ojibway/?start=all

6. See also Native Heart Berry Basketry of the Ojibway;
http://www.simplybaskets.com/Native_American_Indian_Ojibwa_Strawberry_Heart_Berry_Basket.html

7. Historical Context for the time frame of annihilation of the Delaware by George Rogers Clark can be seen in George Rogers Clark's journal. This account verifies the placement of the Delaware in Piqua, Ohio, where the Piqua Ketika Figurines were found. And later in Indiana, Cahokia, Illinois, and Kentucky.
http://books.google.com/books?id=D2gOAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=george+rogers+clark

8. Lakota Winter Counts -  The Year the Stars Fell: Lakota Winter Counts at the Smithsonian by Greene is an excellent place to start in the study on these artifacts. Winter counts were also part of this pictographic language of the northern nations, which include countless parallels in symbolism to that of the Walam Olum.

9. Piqua Ohio artifacts from the Smithsonian are shown to be Ketika figurines in "Social Symbolism of Tribal Art" by Carl Schuster. This comprehensive work shows the Ketika Figurines and explains their cultural significance.
http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/walamolum.htm

I want to address several of these assertions, but don't have time this morning. Saving so they won't be edited before I have time to comment. Will post this evening.

[BuboAhab]

BuboAhab -

As near as I know, Mr Burrows "artifacts" are all frauds. Mr. Burrows was the jailer of Frank Joseph Collin, the organizer of the neo-Nazi marches through Skokie, who was later imprisoned for improper activities with young boys, and who emerged from prison to become editor of Ancient American magazine.

From the reports that I have read and seen presented, many people have had much time and money wasted trying to verify any of Burrows' claims, and to date they have not had any success.

Until Burrows proves any of his claims, it would probably be best to consider his "artifacts" as frauds. You will want to remove mention of them, so as to not compromise your citations of real artifacts showing WO symbols, or cast shadows on your sense of judgment.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Ed Grondine;
The subject and the objects of the Burrows Cave "discovery" are a different topic from the Walam Olum and should not be conflated in any way. To this end, I suggest a different thread for the topic of the Burrows Cave. For the record, I have no affiliation with Mr. Burrows or any of the activities that you stated. I have never met the person that you are speaking of and do not know anything about the man. Hopefully this clears up any confusion.

[BuboAhab]

I want to address several of these assertions, but don't have time this morning. Saving so they won't be edited before I have time to comment. Will post this evening.

: Bls don't bother with your "address" unless you have facts and citations to back up your opinion. The citations that I have listed are independently verifiable and can be checked by anyone that is serious about researching the topic of the Walam Olum.

[bls926]

Grondine reinforced a reason not to share the treasure of the Walam Olum with those unable to grasp the truth.  As Le Paige Du Pratz stated, "This is what makes them vividly conscious of the fact that they ought not to waste this treasure, and that the surest means of preserving it unaltered is not to entrust such a precious deposit to people who do not have the prudence necessary to make good use of it, or who in a little while would entirely deform it by additions or by omissions equally unfortunate to the truth."

Contrary to what Bls would have us believe, not all "stick figures" are alike. There is a marked resemblance between Ojibway Chief George Copway's glyphs and the Walam Olum glyphs. This is because the Walam Olum used Ojibway symbols with meaning.


For those who had difficulty locating sources:

Going to reply to these one by one.

1. Man and Impact In the Americas by Grondine is a most valuable source in this study.

I haven't read Man and Impact, but having experienced the 'research' in this thread, I don't think I'll bother.

2. Picking Berries is used in the Walam Olum in the 19th glyph. According to Napora, glyph 19 is translated as "picking berries".
http://surledosdelatortue.free.fr/24WALAM.htm

 19th Glyph - Gattamin netami mitzi nijini nantine'

I don't read French, so I'm not sure what Napora originally thought the 19th glyph said. I do know that Napora now thinks the Walam Olum is a hoax. He has been quoted as saying that he was "dismayed that the sources upon whom he had relied had been so negligent in their investigation of the document that the hoax should have continued as long as it has".

Rafinesque translated it as "fat fruit the first food the Jinns the fairies".

Brinton translated the same glyph/phrase to say "and fetched them food, when first they desired it".

3. The context of the phrase is set out as described in the Delaware Indian Big House ceremony on page 143. Further supporting the context: Speck clarifies the Delaware phraseology includes the statement "Wampum is our heart" on page 64

It's disrespectful to speak of the Big House Ceremony while talking about the Walam Olum.

4. The Delaware Chief by the English Name of George Copway sets out dozens of other glyhps used in the walam olum in his 1860 book entitled The Traditional History of the Ojibway Indians (Which I stated the walam olum glyphs should be compared with).
http://www.archive.org/details/indianlifeindian00copw

George Copway was Ojibwe, not Delaware. I thought we already cleared that up. Are you now saying the Walam Olum used Ojibwe glyphs? I thought it was supposed to be Lenape.

Let's compare the Walam Olum glyphs with the glyphs in Copway's book.

Walam Olum

. . . . . . . . .

. . . . . .


Copway

5. The Birchbark Scrolls of the Southern Ojibway sets out further symbolism of picking berries on page 103.
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Sacred%20Scrolls%20of%20the%20Southern%20Ojibway/?start=all

I didn't see any berries.

. . .

. . .

6. See also Native Heart Berry Basketry of the Ojibway;
http://www.simplybaskets.com/Native_American_Indian_Ojibwa_Strawberry_Heart_Berry_Basket.html

This is a modern basket . . . 2004. It's the only Ojibwe 'strawberry basket' I could find anywhere.



Compare with traditional Ojibwe baskets.

. . .

7. Historical Context for the time frame of annihilation of the Delaware by George Rogers Clark can be seen in George Rogers Clark's journal. This account verifies the placement of the Delaware in Piqua, Ohio, where the Piqua Ketika Figurines were found. And later in Indiana, Cahokia, Illinois, and Kentucky.
http://books.google.com/books?id=D2gOAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=george+rogers+clark

The Lenape were not annihilated. Horrible things happened, they were forced out of their homeland, murdered, suffered the pain of Manifest Destiny; but they are still here. Don't be so arrogant.

8. Lakota Winter Counts -  The Year the Stars Fell: Lakota Winter Counts at the Smithsonian by Greene is an excellent place to start in the study on these artifacts. Winter counts were also part of this pictographic language of the northern nations, which include countless parallels in symbolism to that of the Walam Olum.

Lakota Winter Counts

9. Piqua Ohio artifacts from the Smithsonian are shown to be Ketika figurines in "Social Symbolism of Tribal Art" by Carl Schuster. This comprehensive work shows the Ketika Figurines and explains their cultural significance.
http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/walamolum.htm

We did not walk across the Bering Strait. We did not come from Norway by way of Greenland. We did not come from Atlantis. We are not the Lost Tribe of Israel; neither are we related to any other tribes in the Middle East. There is no connection to Wales. I realize these facts fly in the face of all your research, but it's time for a little reality. Bubo, I know you've built your website and most of your academic career around these fantasies, but they just aren't true.

[bls926]

I want to address several of these assertions, but don't have time this morning. Saving so they won't be edited before I have time to comment. Will post this evening.

: Bls don't bother with your "address" unless you have facts and citations to back up your opinion. The citations that I have listed are independently verifiable and can be checked by anyone that is serious about researching the topic of the Walam Olum.

Facts, not opinion. As for the citations . . . I used the ones you gave us.

[E.P. Grondine]

Grondine reinforced a reason not to share the treasure of the Walam Olum with those unable to grasp the truth.  As Le Paige Du Pratz stated, "This is what makes them vividly conscious of the fact that they ought not to waste this treasure, and that the surest means of preserving it unaltered is not to entrust such a precious deposit to people who do not have the prudence necessary to make good use of it, or who in a little while would entirely deform it by additions or by omissions equally unfortunate to the truth."

Excuse me, Bubo Ahab, but Le Page du Pratz was speaking about the mechanisms the Natchez used to preserve their history in true form - they carefully selected their mede. These national histories were usually recited publicly once a year. As I understand, among the Lenape this occurred during the Big House Ceremony.

[E.P. Grondine]

bls -

Do you have any idead why my keyboard is locking?

I haven't read Man and Impact, but having experienced the 'research' in this thread, I don't think I'll bother.

Bubo Ahab's iconographic work does not come from "Man and Impact in the Americas"

I have stated my reasons for my problems with Oestreicher's work as it not stands.
You can try to ignore the archaeological sequence, but that is your problem, not mine.

I was told by Lenape in Anderson that the Lenape stopped holding the Big House Ceremony some 20 years ago.
The report was that the Lenape recited their traditions during this ceremony, so it has bearing on the problem at hand.

The Lenape  mede were pretty much annihilated. Otherwise we would not be having this discussion of what Rafinesque did.






 

[E.P. Grondine]

Re: cyber attack that fouls keyboarding.
There is a difference between clever and intelligent. Someday someone will learn it.
My apologies for my anger at this.

We did not walk across the Bering Strait.

I see - Are you a racist who can't stand the idea of being distantly related to the peoples of Asia?

Well, as near as I can make out from Cambridge University's world DNA database, and the archaeological record:
1) C mt DNA (Iroquoian and others) crossed Berringia from after 50,000 BCE to about 32,000 BCE
2) A mt DNA (Siouxian hunters in the inland strip) crossed Beringia from about 32,000 BCE to 27,000 BC
and A mt DNA (Algonquin) crossed hunting sea turtles along the coast - hence the Great Turtle traditions,
which are shared with the peoples in Shanxi China.
3) B and D mt DNA (southern peoples ancestors) crossed the Pacific Ocean to South America sometime around 40,000 BCE, perhaps earlier, when boats were developed
4) The Savanah River mt DNA crossed from the Sahara River region of Africa to Pedra Furada 35,000 BC -it is nearly extinct, except for 6 individuals - most killed by impact, the remainder slaughtered during the conquest.
5) X mt DNA crossed from Europe 8,350 BCE - the Red Paint People

[E.P. Grondine]

Due to the "keyboard problem" I have had to break my response into these separate messages.

We did not come from Norway by way of Greenland. We did not come from Atlantis. We are not the Lost Tribe of Israel; neither are we related to any other tribes in the Middle East. There is no connection to Wales. I realize these facts fly in the face of all your research, but it's time for a little reality. Bubo, I know you've built your website and most of your academic career around these fantasies, but they just aren't true.

Agreed. There are some people who have taken records of minor contacts and built imaginary worlds.
Educated Indian can provide you with a copy of my expose of this nonsense.
Without revealing their identities, I will add that others can as well.
Or you may contact me directly for a copy.

Bubo Ahab, what is your response?

[E.P. Grondine]

Of course, the "keyboarding problem" could be related to exposing the Burrows Cave fraud ring, and not
to bls.

I suppose we'll learn which shortly.