The Red Record

[shkaakwus]

E. P. Grondine writes:

"Oestreicher and Kraft would have us believe that the Lenape came south so early that they forgot their own word for "cat", and then had to borrow a similar word from the Swedes. Their morphology of this will bear examining..."

The leading Algonquianist and preeminent expert on Delaware, Dr. Ives Goddard, of the Smithosonian Institution, tells us that "po:shi:sh" (Munsee dialect) and "po:shi:s" (Unami dialect), meaning 'cat,' come from the Dutch words, 'poes' and 'poesje.'  He says they cannot come from Proto-Algonquian, *peshiwa ('lynx').  /"Dutch Loanwords in Delaware," by Ives Goddard, in Kraft, H.C., ed., A Delaware Indian Symposium, Harrisburg, PA (1974), pp.156-7./

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi Ed! Rich here, I have some questions:

Hi Rich!, Ed here, and I hope my answers will satisfy, or at point in good directions. My stroke interrupted the footnoting of my book that would make answering your questions easier.

1.Where is the paleontological evidence that jaguars roamed as far as the Ohio valley?

I do not recall that I have ever seen contact era jaguar mounted remains in any museum, but I did look up the colonists' accounts of these jaguars at Newark, Ohio, notes from which I posted on over at the paleoanthropology forum. They were a deadly threat to them that late. Grey with red markings, and quite a leap.

That's also where Tecumseh got his name from,  if I remember correctly - Leaping, Springing, describing meteorites in flight.

2. Where is the Archaeological evidence that Cahokia was burnt? All evidence points that Cahokia failed due to over-extending it's resources.

I will have to cede (at least this afternoon) that I mistakenly recalled actual recovered burn evidence, but...

Note the appearance of Oneota at Cahokia:
http://www.nps.gov/archive/jeff/LewisClark2/TheBicentennial/Symposium2001/Papers/Iseminger_William.htm

The date of 1310 that I used in my book came from the visitor center, or from Lee Vick. (My stroke interfered with a dead on citation in MIIA, and its tough going through several feet of materials to try and relocate it now.)

For the Sand phase at Cahokia see Robert Hall, Cahokia Identity, Cahokia and the Hinterlands,  pages 18- 25, especially page 25. RC charts are there as well.

And here's a nice site about Oneota at Angel Mounds:
http://www.indiana.edu/~archaeo/hovey/hl-ts.htm

The really best dated and diagnostic site I've seen for Oneota in that area is Ana Lyne, which I mentioned earlier in the discussion here along with its RC dates. 75% Oneota, 25% "mississippian" ceramics, RC 1170-1270, which I saw a presentation on last year.

In other words, the flanking movement from Heckewelder, from RC dates.
Please forgive me my slip on fire being used to broach the palisades.

3. The Eastern Proto-Siouian people lived from Pennsyvania (Shenks Ferry Culture) to the Carolinas (Pee Dee, Santee, etc.) Archaeological research points to them existing in the East since the Middle Archaic Period. That and linguistic evidence also points to a East-West migration for the Western Siouian.

Siouxian migration was certainly East-West from the Mississippi River and its tributaries during the contact period.

One problem with an earlier eastern Siouxian/western migration hypothesis is that the Cherokee remembered their battle with the Catawba when they first showed up. Of course, mt DNA A distribution abundantly demonstrates the problems with this hypothesis as well.

My guess is that your Shenk's Ferry site may be along the Cataba War Path, which headed from the south into Pennsylvania.

So how were the Monacan "driven to the East" and how are they "isolate"?

Its quite a way from the Monacans to the Catawba, and there are no records of alliance between the two peoples during contact and the conquest, to my knowledge. The Catawba War Path actually went up through Roanoke in Virginia, instead of through the Piedmont region, which would have occurred had the two Siouxian peoples been distantly related, in my opinion.

The Proto-Algonquians did not start moving in, in small groups, until the Terminal Archaic/ Early Woodland Periods.

My current estimate is that in the central regions (which are not the North East)
Algonquin migration may be set at the climate collapse of 536 CE. That accords with the appearance of Fort Ancient fortified sites, the distribution of Shawnee language, and with Shawnee tradition.

Once again, my apologies for mistakenly recalling actual recovered burn evidence of pallisade broaching, but...

We all are trying to figure out what occurred, and if we've been at this long enough we all know that we're capable of making mistakes. That's my best estimate; others will hold other opinions, and often have good reasons for doing so.
 
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

[E.P. Grondine]

Mr, Grondine
in your reply # 22 you state there were NO MOUND BUILDERS.

how do you explain the effigy mounds,in Iowa ,bear mounds,bird mounds,also other types of mounds. wisconsin there were bird ,turtle,some type of big cat mound.and other mounds ohio there were 2 large serpant mounds,bear mound, bird, lizzard, or alligator mounds. i could bring up the mounds in Manitoba, North dakota, Indiana,Missouri,Minnesota,Kentucky,etc.there were 1000s and 1000s  of mounds.

Hi bullhead -

Among the nuage fringe, they speak of THE MOUND BUILDERS as though they were one superior people. A lot of this goes back to Rafinesque, as Oestreicher pointed out in his essay. This bit of nonsense then went through Augustus Le Plongeon, and through him on to the nuagers of today.

In truth, many different peoples used earth as a construction material for many different types of structures at different times: for palace foundations, temple foundations, burial vaults, astronomical observatories, fort walls, commemorative structures, dance grounds, ball courts, irrigation works, etc.

Today's mounds are the remains of their works. They simply weren't piling up dirt for no purpose.

For one example, those effigy mounds n the Wisconsin area which you mention appear to have been clan meeting places for the clans of the Ho Chunk.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

[NanticokePiney]

 I did look up the colonists' accounts of these jaguars at Newark, Ohio, notes from which I posted on over at the paleoanthropology forum. They were a deadly threat to them that late. Grey with red markings, and quite a leap.

 I would like to see this account. Is it published somewhere?

One problem with an earlier eastern Siouxian/western migration hypothesis is that the Cherokee remembered their battle with the Catawba when they first showed up. Of course, mt DNA A distribution abundantly demonstrates the problems with this hypothesis as well.

 The Cherokee migrated into the Southeast during the Late Woodland and encountered the Siouian People already residing there.

My guess is that your Shenk's Ferry site may be along the Cataba War Path, which headed from the south into Pennsylvania.

 The Shenk's Ferry Culture evolved in situ on the Susquehanna River ( see: Jay Custer)

My current estimate is that in the central regions (which are not the North East)
Algonquin migration may be set at the climate collapse of 536 CE. That accords with the appearance of Fort Ancient fortified sites, the distribution of Shawnee language, and with Shawnee tradition.

  Making them and the other Southeastern Algonquians the Middlesex-Adena Culture.
I would recommend you research the Chowan or Chowanac of South Carolina. You'll see some interesting connections.

[bullhead]

Mr.Grondine
I don`t know which is the worst ,you for saying there are NO MOUND BUILDERS or those nuage people you say look at them as "one superior people ".they are just aboriginal people and mound building was part of there Culture.
if you follow the siouan migration out of the ohio valley to the north north west you find mounds.mounds date all the way back to the indian knoll people ,it`s a pretty well established part of there culture.
I don`t know about clan meeting place? I think your wrong .I believe they were built to show respect for there Helpers.here is an example of why i say that "the bear was considered sacred to all of these aboriginal people not just the bear clan people ".I could be wrong.
But I know you are wrong when you say there are NO mound builders

[shkaakwus]

E. P. Grondine writes:

"If however we identify the Lenape Tallege/we with the Shawnee Tchiliga/tha (modern pronunciation "Talega") division..."

Ed:  You give what you say is the "modern pronunciation" ("Talega") of Tchiliga/tha, because that looks much more like Tallege/we; but, even if this is the "modern pronunciation," it is irrelevant.  It clearly was not pronounced this way, in the past, or the Ohio city would have been called "Talega," instead of "Chillicothe"--which looks a lot less like Tallege/we!  What's more, no Lenape speaker, nor Moravian missionary would have any trouble pronouncing the Shawnee name, correctly.

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi Rich,

I would like to see this account. Is it published somewhere?

Not to my knowledge. I stumbled across the account of the jaguars I read while in Newark reading colonial accounts as I traced the route from Marietta (Kishpoko seat) to Newark.

I don't know of any comprehensive paper that's ever been done on the North American jaguar along the Ohio River; for that matter even the eastern bison is not comprehensively documented anywhere to my knowledge, and that is a major fauna. Only bits and pieces here and there.

The Cherokee migrated into the Southeast during the Late Woodland and encountered the Siouian People already residing there.

The Cherokee migrated into the Qualla lands after they were depopulated by the Bald Mountains impact. The published dates now for Pisgah are around 850 CE, dates which were not available when I wrote my book.

The nearby people in NC were Iroquoian, with some Savanah River descendants over towards Watseka.

The Shenk's Ferry Culture evolved in situ on the Susquehanna River ( see: Jay Custer)

I assume that the Siouxian identification would have been from the contact period, so my first estimate would be that the people at this site offered refuge to either Monacan or Catawba survivors who were fleeing colonists.

I would recommend you research the Chowan or Chowanac of South Carolina. You'll see some interesting connections.

I hope I get a chance to someday.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

[E.P. Grondine]

Mr.Grondine
I don`t know which is the worst ,you for saying there are NO MOUND BUILDERS or those nuage people you say look at them as "one superior people ".they are just aboriginal people and mound building was part of there Culture.
if you follow the siouan migration out of the ohio valley to the north north west you find mounds.mounds date all the way back to the indian knoll people ,it`s a pretty well established part of there culture.
I don`t know about clan meeting place? I think your wrong .I believe they were built to show respect for there Helpers.here is an example of why i say that "the bear was considered sacred to all of these aboriginal people not just the bear clan people ".I could be wrong.
But I know you are wrong when you say there are NO mound builders

Hi Bullhead,

Thanks for mentioning the helpers; the anthropologists call the people who relied on a helper a "clan".

No one built mounds. The mounds of today are the remains of earth structures from thousands of years ago, and many peoples used dirt as a building material, not just Sioux alone.

Ed

[E.P. Grondine]

E. P. Grondine writes:

"If however we identify the Lenape Tallege/we with the Shawnee Tchiliga/tha (modern pronunciation "Talega") division..."

Ed:  You give what you say is the "modern pronunciation" ("Talega") of Tchiliga/tha, because that looks much more like Tallege/we; but, even if this is the "modern pronunciation," it is irrelevant.  It clearly was not pronounced this way, in the past, or the Ohio city would have been called "Talega," instead of "Chillicothe"--which looks a lot less like Tallege/we!  What's more, no Lenape speaker, nor Moravian missionary would have any trouble pronouncing the Shawnee name, correctly.

Hi shkaakwas -

And one might think that the Lenape would not have had any problem coming up with a word closer to "tsulagi" for the Cherokee.

E.P.

[shkaakwus]

E. P. Grondine writes:

"And one might think that the Lenape would not have had any problem coming up with a word closer to "tsulagi" for the Cherokee"

I do think that.  That's why I'm not convinced that "Talligewi" = "tsulagi" (as I said, previously).  And, I reiterate, NOBODY knows who the Talligewi were.  We can only guess, right now.

[LittleOldMan]

I am confused.  What about the mounds at Moundville Ala? Evidence indicates that they were used as both burial and as  worship centers.  "LittleOldMan"

[shkaakwus]

I believe E. P. Grondine is taking exception to the use of the word, "mounds," to describe these various structures.  He's not denying their existence!

[NanticokePiney]

 The North Carolina people were the Siouian Eno, Waccamaw Sugaree, and Woccon inland. The Iroquoian Nottaway, Meherrin and Tuscarora in the middle and Algonquians on the Coast.
  What is the "Bald Mountain Impact"?

 Not to my knowledge. I stumbled across the account of the jaguars I read while in Newark reading colonial accounts as I traced the route from Marietta (Kishpoko seat) to Newark.

I don't know of any comprehensive paper that's ever been done on the North American jaguar along the Ohio River; for that matter even the eastern bison is not comprehensively documented anywhere to my knowledge, and that is a major fauna. Only bits and pieces here and there.

  There is a lot of remains ( bones, teeth) of the eastern bison in various archaeological collections. There is no remains of the jaguar.

I assume that the Siouxian identification would have been from the contact period, so my first estimate would be that the people at this site offered refuge to either Monacan or Catawba survivors who were fleeing colonists.

  The culture was wiped out by European diseases carried inland before English settlement on the East Coast. The survivors were absorbed by the Susquehanna. They were identified through the remains of religious structures in archaeological contexts.

[E.P. Grondine]

I believe E. P. Grondine is taking exception to the use of the word, "mounds," to describe these various structures.  He's not denying their existence!

Hi Little Old Man,

Thanks, shkaakwas. That's pretty much it. The "mounds" are what remains of the earth structures the different peoples built, such as those Little Old Man speaks of at Moundsville. This confuses a lot of people.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

[E.P. Grondine]

The North Carolina people were the Siouian Eno, Waccamaw Sugaree, and Woccon inland.

I don't have a copy of "Red Carolinians" handy, unfortunately. But I can assure you that the Ocanachee were not a siouxian people, as they were savanah river descendants, as were the Yuchi, and they looked like them, and quite distinct. The contact period reports of the Ocanachee's appearance were published just two years ago.

Again, the Cherokee remembered when the Siouxian peoples showed up, and their battle with them.

So what you have at European contact is two siouxian groups, Monacan in the north, and the group in the south.

What is the "Bald Mountain Impact"?

It appears to have been a Tunguska-class impact event.

There is a lot of remains ( bones, teeth) of the eastern bison in various archaeological collections. There are no remains of the jaguar.

Sorry to hear that, but the first colonist's first hand account of the jaguar which I read is still there. I wonder if the jaguars' remains have been mistaken for those of mountain lion:
http://www.richwooders.com/appalachian/wildlife/cougar.htm

again, their coloring was different, as was their hunting methods.

returning to your site in Pennsylvania,

The culture was wiped out by European diseases carried inland before English settlement on the East Coast.

Then you're possibly looking at the Spanish plague ca. 1536 or so.

The survivors were absorbed by the Susquehanna. They were identified through the remains of religious structures in archaeological contexts.

I would take another look at the diagnostics. What cultural artifacts indicated they were a Siouxian people?

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas