The Red Record

[bls926]

The Sacred Scrolls of the Southern Ojibway . . . Ojibwe

The Year the Stars Fell: Lakota Winter Counts at the Smithsonian . . . Lakota

So, why does Bubo mention either one in a discussion of the Walam Olum?

It is worthy to mention Ojibway and Lakota in discussion of the Walam Olum because each group used "Picture Writing" in recording their history.  The same phrases and symbols were actually used by these groups during important ceremonies, as shown above.  These groups also were "named" by Europeans and these names have little or nothing to do with who they actually were.

Many people used "Picture Writing" in recording their history; the Ojibwe, Lakota, and Lenape are not unique in this regard.

"The same phrases and symbols were actually used by these groups" . . . Please give an example where the Ojibwe, Lakota, and Lenape use the same word or symbol, with the identical meaning. You're not going to find even one. No, your "picking berries" example is not valid. Their ceremonies are not the same; their traditions are not the same; their languages are not the same.

These groups were "named" by Europeans. These groups? I'm sure you meant to say these Nations. These wouldn't be the only People "named" by Europeans or by neighboring Nations.

You have failed to justify your use of The Sacred Scrolls of the Southern Ojibway or The Year the Stars Fell: Lakota Winter Counts at the Smithsonian in trying to prove the authenticity of the Walam Olum.

[BuboAhab]

Bls's opinion :"No, your "picking berries" example is not valid."  is completely unsupported by any facts.

The phrase "picking berries" in allegorical uses in each ceremony and scroll is exactly the same.

Dont take my word for it, read the factual proof for yourself that three sources use the same phrase, symbol, and ceremony.

See also page 132, the Traditional History of the Ojibway Nation, by George Copway 1860.
http://www.archive.org/details/indianlifeindian00copw

Interesting to compare the walam olum symbols with this:
http://surledosdelatortue.free.fr/24WALAM.htm

[bls926]

Continuity that the Walam Olum, Delaware Indian Big House Ceremony by Speck, and Birchbark Scrolls by Dewdney are each related is seen in their reference to "Picking Berries".

]Rafinesque recorded in the Walam Olum first part "the first women picking berries"

Speck states that "Picking Berries" was done on the fourth, fifth, and sixth day of the Big House Ceremony.  Picking berries was symbolic of the attendants action of picking up wampum scattered about at the ceremony. The Wampum was stored in the mouth while the attendants made the sound "M+". This symbolized birds picking berries from bushes. Others state that the action used to reward the attendants for their efforts with Wampum (Money).

]Dewdney recorded in the Birchbark scrolls that "Picking berries" was symbolic of taking the divergent path. The divergent path was taken to go to the heart berry when one is making a "breakthrough".  Red Sky stated the temptation of the "strawberry" on the divergent path should be avoided.

The Lakota and Delaware custom of recording yearly "winter Counts" on skin or birch bark was also widely recorded. See the book entitled "The Year the Stars Fell: Lakota Winter Counts at the Smithsonian "

I suggest that "picking strawberries" was symbolic of temptation. Most importantly, this statement shows that at least this "portion" of the document is authentic.

There is no word in the Walam Olum meaning "picking berries." "Gattamin", the word that's supposed to mean that, by one translator's guess, is not a Lenape word.  It's a word invented by Rafinesque, which he said means "fat fruits." So even the author of the Walam Olum didn't talk about "picking berries". "Gattamin" is not found in the Big House Ceremony.

In the Big House Ceremony, "picking berries" is used in reference to picking up wampum, in payment or reward for services rendered.

In the Birchbark Scrolls, the use of the term "picking berries" signifies the "divergent path" taken when making a "breakthrough".

The phrase "picking berries" in allegorical uses in each ceremony and scroll is exactly the same.

Using the references cited, this has not been proven.

Still wondering why you mentioned the Lakota "winter counts". You haven't even attempted to tie that into the discussion, just left a loose-end dangling.

Your suggestion that "picking strawberries" is symbolic of temptation is opinion, with no facts to back it up.

None of this proves the Walam Olum is authentic. Your statement hinges on "picking berries" and since the word Rafinesque used is not even Lenape, and he said it meant "fat fruits", you're grasping at straws.

[BuboAhab]

Not grasping at straws at all, and it is rewarding to have such expert sources backing up my opinion.  Picking Berries is used in the Walam Olum in the 19th glyph. According to Napora, glyph 19 is translated as "picking berries". The context of the phrase is set out as described in the Delaware Indian Big House ceremony on page 143. The Delaware Chief by the English Name of George Copway sets out dozens of other glyhps used in the walam olum in his 1860 book entitled The Traditional History of the Ojibway Indians. The Birchbark Scrolls of the Southern Ojibway sets out further symbolism of picking berries on page 103. Further supporting the context: Speck clarifies the Delaware phraseology includes the statement "Wampum is our heart" on page 64.See also Native Heart Berry Basketry of the Ojibway
http://www.simplybaskets.com/Native_American_Indian_Ojibwa_Strawberry_Heart_Berry_Basket.html
Winter counts were also part of this pictographic language of the northern nations, which include countless parallels in symbolism to that of the Walam Olum.

[bls926]

Not grasping at straws at all, and it is rewarding to have such expert sources backing up my opinion.  Picking Berries is used in the Walam Olum in the 19th glyph. According to Napora, glyph 19 is translated as "picking berries". The context of the phrase is set out as described in the Delaware Indian Big House ceremony on page 143. The Delaware Chief by the English Name of George Copway sets out dozens of other glyhps used in the walam olum in his 1860 book entitled The Traditional History of the Ojibway Indians. The Birchbark Scrolls of the Southern Ojibway sets out further symbolism of picking berries on page 103. Further supporting the context: Speck clarifies the Delaware phraseology includes the statement "Wampum is our heart" on page 64.See also Native Heart Berry Basketry of the Ojibway
http://www.simplybaskets.com/Native_American_Indian_Ojibwa_Strawberry_Heart_Berry_Basket.html
Winter counts were also part of this pictographic language of the northern nations, which include countless parallels in symbolism to that of the Walam Olum.

According to Rafinesque, there was no "picking berries". According to him, his made-up word meant "fat fruits".

Joe Napora acknowledged that the Walam Olum is a hoax. He has been quoted as saying that he was "dismayed that the sources upon whom he had relied had been so negligent in their investigation of the document that the hoax should have continued as long as it has".
http://books.google.com/books?id=w7bPHGCMsg0C&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=Napora+%2B+Walam+Olum&source=bl&ots=AalI18s8IK&sig=nUzDPZH6m_6ZHhqWX0JazjayH88&hl=en&ei=CulCSoygBYXasgPOnoHrDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10

Kahgegagahbowh, George Copway, was Mississauga Band Ojibwe. He was not a Delaware Chief. Copway married a white woman and became a Methodist missionary. His first book was The Life, History and Travels of Kah-ge-ga-gah-Bowh, 1847; his second was The Traditional History and Characteristic Sketches of the Ojibwa Nation, 1851. The Walam Olum is not mentioned in either book.

Now you quote Speck as saying "Wampum is our heart". Earlier, when you quoted Speck in regard to "picking berries" . . . "This symbolized birds picking berries from bushes. Others state that the action used to reward the attendants for their efforts with Wampum (Money)." So, which is it?

You cannot draw parallels between all the "northern Nations". Each Nation has its own language, its own traditions, its own history.

[BuboAhab]

Wrong on Raf, correct that Copway was Ojibway chief, not Delaware. And he explained in his books that such sacred writings were to be kept private.
Your interpretation of the excerpts that Oestreicher published "from Napora" is really just evidence of taking statements out of context in a thoughtless attempt to make it appear that Napora's work is not current or valid. Perhaps look up the definition of "dismayed". Then look at previous notes in this thread that clear up Napora's opinion. Read Napora to find out what he wrote, then read Speck to find out what he wrote.

The presumption that there can be no connections between northern groups is also inaccurate because all were fleeing for their lives from invasion, and all had been trading for eons on ancient waterways. One example is that there was obsidian found in Ohio artifacts from the Yellowstone area.

[bls926]

Wrong on Raf, correct that Copway was Ojibway chief, not Delaware. And he explained in his books that such sacred writings were to be kept private.
Your interpretation of the excerpts that Oestreicher published "from Napora" is really just evidence of taking statements out of context in a thoughtless attempt to make it appear that Napora's work is not current or valid. Perhaps look up the definition of "dismayed". Then look at previous notes in this thread that clear up Napora's opinion. Read Napora to find out what he wrote, then read Speck to find out what he wrote.

The presumption that there can be no connections between northern groups is also inaccurate because all were fleeing for their lives from invasion, and all had been trading for eons on ancient waterways. One example is that there was obsidian found in Ohio artifacts from the Yellowstone area.

The word Rafinesque used when he wrote the Walam Olum is "gattamin". This word is not Lenape; it is a made-up word, invented by Rafinesque. He translated it as "fat fruits". Lily translated it to mean "picking berries" and Brinton translated it to mean "they desired it". There is no consensus, even among people who believe the Walam Olum is real. I imagine it is difficult to translate a word that doesn't exist in real life. But since it's Rafinesque's word, I'd go with his meaning.

Yeah, I knew I had my facts when it came to George Copway. Another fact that you may not be aware of . . . He was convicted of embezzlement and defrocked by the Methodist church in 1846. After that happened, he moved to New York, started writing and giving lectures. He used the romantic style of writing, meant to appeal to the popular taste of the time. He portrays himself as ""noble-but-literate and Christianized". Another fact you may not know . . . Copway was given a copy of the Walam Olum and believed it to be authentic. Some think he may have used it as a source for some of his pictographs, changing them up just a bit to make them look Ojibwe.

My interpretation of Napora's words?? Not just my interpretation. Napora says the Walam Olum is a hoax. How many ways can that statement be interpreted? He said he was dismayed that the sources he'd used were so negligent. I think we all know the meaning of dismayed, as well as the meaning of negligent. I am not taking anything out of context. I never said Napora's work "is not current or valid". I put a great deal of validity in his admission that the Walam Olum is a hoax. If you're talking about Napora's translation . . . Napora does not speak, read, or write Lenape. He relied on previous translations; you know, the ones he now feels were negligent.

I'm going to say this one more time, because obviously you're having trouble with comprehension. You cannot make blanket statements about American Indian cultures. Each Nation has it's own history, it's own tradition, it's own language. Just because they traded, just because obsidian was found in Ohio, does not mean that they shared their creation stories, their spirituality, or any of their traditions.

[BuboAhab]

First, opinion of "real or created" lenape words from the early 1800's translation is affected by a major chronological problem of at least 179 years. Languages change over time, a proven fact..

The detractor's character attack on the Chief of the Ojibway is utterly thoughtless. Clearly, dredging up these attacks on the character of an Ojibway Chief is done in an attempt to obscure his use of the Walam Olum symbols. Consider that some settler thought this Ojibway Chief had too much money, and made false accusations.  The "court" process in 1800's made it especially easy to destroy native lives, ignore civil rights and take their lands.

Lets simply review logic about the argument.  If Ojibway Chief was given a copy of the Walam Olum, and then "copied" the walam olum images into his 1860 book on authentic glyphs, then he must have thought very highly of Rafinesques "creation". If Ojibway Chief never saw the document, then the symbols were obviously evidence of authenticity. IF Ojibway Chief translated the Walam Olum for Rafinesque, then the Walam Olum is authentic. And still, Oest would have us believe that Raf "copied" them.

When we have proof that natives traded raw materials, then they must have got something back for their commodity. What was it? Verification that they traded the legends, stories, and traditions can easily be determined by a widespread review of Native myths, languages, and legends. Bls need not repeat yourself any more. I agree to disagree with Bls constant thoughtless nay saying.

[bls926]

First, opinion of "real or created" lenape words from the early 1800's translation is affected by a major chronological problem of at least 179 years. Languages change over time, a proven fact..

The detractor's character attack on the Chief of the Ojibway is utterly thoughtless. Clearly, dredging up these attacks on the character of an Ojibway Chief is done in an attempt to obscure his use of the Walam Olum symbols. Consider that some settler thought this Ojibway Chief had too much money, and made false accusations.  The "court" process in 1800's made it especially easy to destroy native lives, ignore civil rights and take their lands.

Lets simply review logic about the argument.  If Ojibway Chief was given a copy of the Walam Olum, and then "copied" the walam olum images into his 1860 book on authentic glyphs, then he must have thought very highly of Rafinesques "creation". If Ojibway Chief never saw the document, then the symbols were obviously evidence of authenticity. IF Ojibway Chief translated the Walam Olum for Rafinesque, then the Walam Olum is authentic. And still, Oest would have us believe that Raf "copied" them.

When we have proof that natives traded raw materials, then they must have got something back for their commodity. What was it? Verification that they traded the legends, stories, and traditions can easily be determined by a widespread review of Native myths, languages, and legends. Bls need not repeat yourself any more. I agree to disagree with Bls constant thoughtless nay saying.

Yes, languages change over time. This is not what happened in this case. Rafinesque knew some Lenape; he invented the rest. From his original manuscript, it can be determined that he wrote the Walam Olum first in English and then translated it into Lenape.

This was not a "character attack on the Chief of the Ojibway". I was simply stating facts; something you seem unable to do. Your ramble about what might have happened, i.e. "some settler thought this Ojibway Chief had too much money, and made false accusations", is purely conjecture. You don't need to tell me about the court system in the 1800's, as it pertains to Indians; I know how bad it was. However, there is no evidence that Copway's conviction was not legitimate. Don't muddy the water.

Copway did not translate the Walam Olum for Rafinesque. He received a copy of the completed, published work. Did he think "very highly" of it? I guess so, at least he liked it enough to copy some of the symbols. The fact that he borrowed from the Walam Olum does not make it authentic. It doesn't say much for Copway, either.

What do you think Indians traded for? Do you think they traded corn for ceremony? Are you intentionally being obtuse? They traded one commodity for another. Traditions and spirituality are not commodities.
 
One more time: You cannot make blanket statements about American Indian cultures. Each Nation has it's own history, it's own tradition, it's own language. Just because they traded, just because obsidian was found in Ohio, does not mean that they shared their creation stories, their spirituality, or any of their traditions.

[wolfhawaii]

What do you think Indians traded for? Do you think they traded corn for ceremony? Are you intentionally being obtuse? They traded one commodity for another. Traditions and spirituality are not commodities.
 
One more time: You cannot make blanket statements about American Indian cultures. Each Nation has it's own history, it's own tradition, it's own language. Just because they traded, just because obsidian was found in Ohio, does not mean that they shared their creation stories, their spirituality, or any of their traditions.

You sure this NEVER happened? Ghost Dance  and the southeastern stomp culture comes to mind; if i had the time to research these days i think numerous examples would emerge. Is it the case with the Walum Olam? Don't know. Ad hominem comments discouraged and may violate TOS.

[bls926]

What do you think Indians traded for? Do you think they traded corn for ceremony? Are you intentionally being obtuse? They traded one commodity for another. Traditions and spirituality are not commodities.
 
One more time: You cannot make blanket statements about American Indian cultures. Each Nation has it's own history, it's own tradition, it's own language. Just because they traded, just because obsidian was found in Ohio, does not mean that they shared their creation stories, their spirituality, or any of their traditions.

You sure this NEVER happened? Ghost Dance  and the southeastern stomp culture comes to mind; if i had the time to research these days i think numerous examples would emerge. Is it the case with the Walum Olam? Don't know. Ad hominem comments discouraged and may violate TOS.

Bubo has tried to say that because the Ojibwe recorded events on birchbark scrolls and the Lakota kept their winter counts on hides, the Lenape would have recorded their history on something. He's also tried to say that if a symbol means one thing in Ojibwe, it means something similar in Lenape. He's trying to make blanket statements about Indian culture, traditions, history, and language. It can't be done.


Ad hominem comments discouraged and may violate TOS . . .

What are you trying to say?

[BuboAhab]

Bls do not put words into my mouth. To concisely summarize my conclusion based on the evidence shown:
1. Ritual and linguistic connections have been shown with the Delaware Indian Big House ceremony.
2.The cultural importance of "picking berries" is corroborated in WO, Southern Ojbway Birchbark scrolls, Delware indian big House ceremony, and Ojibway heart berry Basketry.
3.  Glyphs used in the WO match other artifacts including the Piqua Ohio Ketika Figurines, Cahokia Mounds tablet engravings, Lakota Winter counts, and others.
4. Archaeological evidence has been found that corroborate statements made in the Walam Olum including Stockades, Palisades, and burnt buildings found at Cahokia.
5. Ojibway Chief George Copway translated the Walam Olum (WO) for Rafinesque (see page 132, the Traditional History of the Ojibway Nation, by George Copway 1860).
These points confirm the authenticity of the Walam Olum.

[bls926]

Bls do not put words into my mouth. To concisely summarize my conclusion based on the evidence shown:
1. Ritual and linguistic connections have been shown with the Delaware Indian Big House ceremony.
2.The cultural importance of "picking berries" is corroborated in WO, Southern Ojbway Birchbark scrolls, Delware indian big House ceremony, and Ojibway heart berry Basketry.
3.  Glyphs used in the WO match other artifacts including the Piqua Ohio Ketika Figurines, Cahokia Mounds tablet engravings, Lakota Winter counts, and others.
4. Archaeological evidence has been found that corroborate statements made in the Walam Olum including Stockades, Palisades, and burnt buildings found at Cahokia.
5. Ojibway Chief George Copway translated the Walam Olum (WO) for Rafinesque (see page 132, the Traditional History of the Ojibway Nation, by George Copway 1860).
These points confirm the authenticity of the Walam Olum.

Documentation needed.

Some of these statements are so far from the truth that they border on ridiculous.

[BuboAhab]

Documentation given with page numbers, Bls missed it. bls opinions. Now some others.

"I discovered evidence that convinced me the legend Walam Olum was a true history. I wrote a book, Frozen Trail to Merica, to explain the
history." Myron Payne

"Walam Olum is a fascinating document that deserves more study, study without the academic turf protection and careerism that infects so much historical / literary study.  .. You make the connection, the same as I did, between the Cahokia art and the walam Olum. Perhaps those are the connections that Rafinesque made, but does that matter all that much? Rafinesque was a creative artist / naturalist / poet." Joe Napora

"First to the Wallam Olam and the Welsh connection.  The story of the Wallam Olam is somewhat in a fog.  First, (from what we can glean from Constantine Rafinesque) there was a Dr. Ward who was summoned to the White Water area of Indiana to treat a Native American village whose members were all sick (smallpox?). One of the last surviving men who called himself a "king" asked if he could give this Dr. Ward some sacred information.  The dying Indian told Dr. Ward that the member of the tribe who was originally scheduled to received the information was now dead and there was not left to present the material to him.  The Indian handed Dr. Ward 148 sticks, each with carvings on them.  The University of Georgia attempted to run down the name "Dr. Ward" during the time period.  None were found in Indiana.  But  such a Dr. Ward was found living in Cynthiana, KY and that Dr. Ward was a friend of Rafinesque, so maybe the same one.
Dr. Ward later gave the sticks to Constantine Rafinesque, a professor at Transylvania College in Lexington, KY.  Later Rafinesque and Eli Lilly (of Indiana fame) supposedly went to the tribal area to get more information on the Wallam Olam.  In talking with some surviving elders, they discovered there was a chant that went with each stick. One stick supposedly told of a great flood and another contained the tribe's creation myth.  The remaining sticks told what happened to various kings during their reigns. Lilly published the Wallam Olam as a book and gave each member of the Indiana Historical Society a copy.
The bards of the Brits also recorded births and deaths of nobility on sticks, and on special occasions they brought them out into the public and sang the stories recorded for everyone to hear. Independent invention? Diffusion?
Obviously at the very least Rafinesque and Lilly would have had some trouble understanding the wording of the Wallam Olam, but they did, I think, the best they could to write down what they heard.
Now the Welsh connection.  Had Rafinesque and Lilly written down Guallam Olam instead of Wallam Olam, they would have been right on target.  In British-Khumary (now Welsh), Guallam Olam (sound familiar?) means "Organization of Everyone." And how about this? Lleni Llenape translates from Khumric as "Hidden or Secret Knowledge or Lineage." Do you suppose this misunderstanding may have created a name for a whole new tribe of Native Americans? Many, if not most, of the Native tribes now carry names that were generated from what Europeans heard and wrote down, and some of those were completely off from what the tribes called themselves." Lee Pennington

What happened to the Delaware? Historical Context for the time frame of annihilation of the Delaware by George Rogers Clark can be seen in George Rogers Clark's journal. This account verifies the placement of the Delaware in Piqua, Ohio, where the Piqua Ketika Figurines were found. And later in Indiana, Cahokia, Illinois, and Kentucky.
http://books.google.com/books?id=D2gOAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=george+rogers+clark

Readers can see these birchbark scrolls/ sticks at the following link:
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Sacred%20Scrolls%20of%20the%20Southern%20Ojibway/?start=all
 
Readers can compare other birchbark engravings are found in Russia.
http://gramoty.ru/

[bls926]

Documentation given with page numbers, Bls missed it. bls opinions. Now some others.

"I discovered evidence that convinced me the legend Walam Olum was a true history. I wrote a book, Frozen Trail to Merica, to explain the
history." Myron Payne

"Walam Olum is a fascinating document that deserves more study, study without the academic turf protection and careerism that infects so much historical / literary study.  .. You make the connection, the same as I did, between the Cahokia art and the walam Olum. Perhaps those are the connections that Rafinesque made, but does that matter all that much? Rafinesque was a creative artist / naturalist / poet." Joe Napora

"First to the Wallam Olam and the Welsh connection.  The story of the Wallam Olam is somewhat in a fog.  First, (from what we can glean from Constantine Rafinesque) there was a Dr. Ward who was summoned to the White Water area of Indiana to treat a Native American village whose members were all sick (smallpox?). One of the last surviving men who called himself a "king" asked if he could give this Dr. Ward some sacred information.  The dying Indian told Dr. Ward that the member of the tribe who was originally scheduled to received the information was now dead and there was not left to present the material to him.  The Indian handed Dr. Ward 148 sticks, each with carvings on them.  The University of Georgia attempted to run down the name "Dr. Ward" during the time period.  None were found in Indiana.  But  such a Dr. Ward was found living in Cynthiana, KY and that Dr. Ward was a friend of Rafinesque, so maybe the same one.
Dr. Ward later gave the sticks to Constantine Rafinesque, a professor at Transylvania College in Lexington, KY.  Later Rafinesque and Eli Lilly (of Indiana fame) supposedly went to the tribal area to get more information on the Wallam Olam.  In talking with some surviving elders, they discovered there was a chant that went with each stick. One stick supposedly told of a great flood and another contained the tribe's creation myth.  The remaining sticks told what happened to various kings during their reigns. Lilly published the Wallam Olam as a book and gave each member of the Indiana Historical Society a copy.
The bards of the Brits also recorded births and deaths of nobility on sticks, and on special occasions they brought them out into the public and sang the stories recorded for everyone to hear. Independent invention? Diffusion?
Obviously at the very least Rafinesque and Lilly would have had some trouble understanding the wording of the Wallam Olam, but they did, I think, the best they could to write down what they heard.
Now the Welsh connection.  Had Rafinesque and Lilly written down Guallam Olam instead of Wallam Olam, they would have been right on target.  In British-Khumary (now Welsh), Guallam Olam (sound familiar?) means "Organization of Everyone." And how about this? Lleni Llenape translates from Khumric as "Hidden or Secret Knowledge or Lineage." Do you suppose this misunderstanding may have created a name for a whole new tribe of Native Americans? Many, if not most, of the Native tribes now carry names that were generated from what Europeans heard and wrote down, and some of those were completely off from what the tribes called themselves." Lee Pennington

What happened to the Delaware? Historical Context for the time frame of annihilation of the Delaware by George Rogers Clark can be seen in George Rogers Clark's journal. This account verifies the placement of the Delaware in Piqua, Ohio, where the Piqua Ketika Figurines were found. And later in Indiana, Cahokia, Illinois, and Kentucky.
http://books.google.com/books?id=D2gOAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=george+rogers+clark

Readers can see these birchbark scrolls/ sticks at the following link:
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Sacred%20Scrolls%20of%20the%20Southern%20Ojibway/?start=all
 
Readers can compare other birchbark engravings are found in Russia.
http://gramoty.ru/

 
« Last Edit: Today at 06:44:10 AM by BuboAhab » 


Love the way he edits his posts 12 hours after they were originally made.