The Red Record

[bls926]

I have already posted the link about a dozen times to the photo of the birchbark scrolls.

Readers can see these birchbark scrolls/ sticks at the following link:
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Sacred%20Scrolls%20of%20the%20Southern%20Ojibway/?start=all

Rafinesque and Brinton were alluding to the same meaning, but this is over BLS's head. Picking Berries was an allegory, as before stated.  Continuity that the Walam Olum, Delaware Indian Big House Ceremony by Speck, and Birchbark Scrolls by Dewdney are each related is seen in their reference to "Picking Berries".  

Speck states that "Picking Berries" was done on the fourth, fifth, and sixth day of the Big House Ceremony.  Picking berries was symbolic of the attendants action of picking up wampum scattered about at the ceremony. The Wampum was stored in the mouth while the attendants made the sound "M+". This symbolized birds picking berries from bushes. Others state that the action used to reward the attendants for their efforts with Wampum (Money).

Dewdney recorded in the Birchbark scrolls that "Picking berries" was symbolic of taking the divergent path. The divergent path was taken to go to the heart berry when one is making a "breakthrough".  Red Sky stated the temptation of the "strawberry" on the divergent path should be avoided.

Ketika figurines match Glyphs 2 and 4 in the Walam olum. These were excavated by J.A. Rayner in Piqua Ohio, a site of the unfortunate massacre of the Delaware by George Rogers Clark.

Bls What location are you talking about?

I am not the slightest concerned about what gender Bls is and it does not relate to this topic either. You have been constantly changing the subject, posting thougtless comments, blathering about no connections with anything, ignoring references that include page numbers, and disrespectfully putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

You may see berries, but I wasn't able to find any. If it's true, post it up here. If you can't or won't do that, no one is going to believe you. I was able to disprove your belief that the Lenape, Ojibwe, and Lakota glyphs are the same simply by posting a few pictures. I was able to prove your Ojibwe Strawberry Heart Basket meant nothing. If you're so adamant that there are strawberries, or berries of any kind, prove it.

You may not be concerned with what gender I am, but the fact that you've missed references to me being female, says something about your research abilities. What kind of analyst lets things like that slip by him? It's the little things, the attention to detail that's important. Something you obviously haven't mastered in your 20-something years.

I have not changed the subject once in this thread. My comments have been in response to allegations you've made. You're the one who has brought other topics into this discussion, in a vain attempt to prove the authenticity of the Walam Olum. I haven't ignored your references; I used them to prove your theories wrong. I haven't put words in your mouth; I quoted you. Thoughtless comments? Rafinesque and Brinton's allusions went over my head? Be careful, child. You're becoming very disrespectful.

[BuboAhab]

Bls is again wrong and has proved nothing of disconnection between Lenape, Ojibway or Lakota. On the contrary, Bls has shown other random examples of glyphs on winter counts, glyphs on Copways Book, and more random examples of glyphs from the WO. Also Bls has proven nothing about the Ojibway heart berry basket. Only statements of thoughtless nay-saying, as usual.

Again, Bls can read the book if interested in the heart berry symbolism beginning on page 103.
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Sacred%20Scrolls%20of%20the%20Southern%20Ojibway/?action=view&current=103.jpg

Bls response shows only that this person has not read the sources provided. Bls gender does not matter in this blog or conversation. Bls has constantly changed the subject, just as in this rant about your gender. Also, Bls has taken statements from other sources such as newspaper articles that I have transcribed and made false claims about this being something that I said.

Bottom line is the evidence of the Walam Olum is given which proves that it is authentic.

[educatedindian]

I don't know what it will take to get those involved in this thread to discuss and debate instead of hurling personal attacks. Debate the WO and quit insulting each other.

I'll give you both a few days to edit out your insults towards each other  and any other personal remarks or I will do it myself. And if the insults continue in any way, I'll just lock the thread for good.

[E.P. Grondine]

"I have had this "non-judgemental" and "open minded" cr*p foisted upon me by various individuals."
Censorship based on the social stigma connected with a certain artifact, and other sudden dismissals are subjective ways to think of an object. That is the problem with archaeology today- it is very subjective. Archaeologists have been taught to think based on their gut.  What is cr*p is not following the scientific method in research.

"Artifacts" are well provenienced, and Mr Burrow's and his associates could easily do this, were it not for the fact that their "artifacts" are frauds.

Actually, the Burrow's Cave "artifacts" are not artifacts, they are frauds created and promoted by a well organized ring of con men.  Your appeals to others to suspend "judgment", rational thinking, so that this fraud may continue is all that these con men continually ask for.

But they are well known, and the outlines of their fraud are as well; it is now simply a matter of filling in some of the details, as well as sorting out the victims from the victimizers.

I have suspected for quite some time that you know more about this fraud and those responsible for it than you have  shared with us so far. You have continually repeated these con artists' pleas not to be judged.... You have also given us a count of the Burrow's Cave "artifacts"...and you know when they first appeared...

From what I have learned, they began manufacturing smaller items for sale for lesser amounts as their fraud progressed... the exact time of their start is still not fully known.

Finally, they operate the area east of Cahokia, no?

There is a thread for this now, and please add any more information you have on this fraud there.

"Bubo - The Six Nations memories of European visitors may be read in David Cusick's work, which is given complete as an appendix in "Man and Impact in the Americas". Those visits were minor, and the visitors' ends may be read there as well. Anyone who writes otherwise is creating imaginary empires."
Cusick is a valuable source, and much is learned from reading this. Where did Cusick get his information?

From every tradition keeper of the Six Nations he could meet.

Schuster shows that the Ketika figurine indicates a village courtyard.  The central point was represented as the cosmic navel, that is, the point where all life comes. “Other ketika figures include a “Cosmic Woman” of hourglass form with central disk as navel, 132 & 133. This symbol for woman is said to represent the anatomical proportions of the Original Ancestor. Human figures depicted on top of her suggest that such diagrams were executed originally as earth sculptures, large enough for participants to move about inside them, in the manner of hopscotch diagrams. 

This is similar to the Piqua, Ohio ketika figurines found by J.A. Rayner.2 

Ke is an Osage term that also means turtle.3 

Katickuhraxhu is a term used for Evil spirit by the Tuscarora.4 

Cetika is referenced in ancient Buddhist text called the Bodh Gaya as meaning Royal Palace Shrine at a Sacred Tree, something akin to a private royal chapel.5

In the Walam Olum, the Ojibway Epic, The Ketika Figurine resembles Walam Olum Symbols 2 and 4, which are translated “On the Earth, (was) an extended fog, and there the great manito was.
He made the extended land and the sky.”6

Historical Context for the time frame of annihilation of the Delaware by George Rogers Clark can be seen in George Rogers Clark's journal. This account verifies the placement of the Delaware in Piqua, Ohio, where the Piqua Ketika Figurines were found.7

Therefore, linguistic studies of the Native American epic called the Walam Olum confirm that the written record is authenticated.

1. Carpenter, Edmund Snow, 1922- Title Materials for the study of social symbolism in ancient & tribal art : a record of tradition & continuity based on the researches & writings of Carl Schuster / edited & written by Edmund Carpenter, assisted by Lorraine Spiess Published [New York] : Rock Foundation, 1986-1988 Description 3 v. in 12 : ill. (some col.), col. maps ; 38 cm.

2.  Moorehead, Warren King. The stone age in North America; an archeological encyclopedia of the implements, ornaments, weapons, utensils, etc., of the prehistoric tribes of North America,. Boston, New York, Houghton Mifflin Co., 1910.

3. La Flesche, Francis. A Dictionary of the Osage language. Washington, D.C. : U.S. Govt. print. off., 1932.

4. Catlin, George. Letters and Notes of the Manners, Customs, and conditions of North American Indians. Volume II. Dover Publications. 1973.

5.  http://www.buddhanet.net/bodh_gaya/bodh_gaya02.htm

6. http://books.google.com/books?id=KSgTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PP7

7. http://books.google.com/books?id=D2gOAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=george+rogers+clark

Bubo Ahab, you lack judgment, in my opinion. Budhist figurines and words have nothing to do with the Walam Olum, in my opinion, and I want to emphasize that that is in my opinion, my judgment.

During the conquest, the Miami invited other peoples to be buffers between them and the Europeans. The Town of Piqua is named after the Piqua division of the Shawnee, and their final cone and ring earthwork may be seen just to the west of the trade house there.

On a more positive note, in as much as my history ended with the European arrival, I did not know earlier of the Lenape presence there at Piqua, nor of Clark's attack on them, nor of the slate which you showed with what appears to be a pictograph similar to one in the Walam Olum manuscript.

But then all would have to be examined in detail before any conclusion could be made.

In general, my views on the Walam Olum have not changed since my note "Reconstructing Rafinesque". I still think that resolving the problem of what Rafinesque did is going to require tracking the Lenape mede, and determining their fate.

[BuboAhab]

Mr. Grondine, Did you notice educatedindians request to avoid hurling insults, quit insulting each other and making personal attacks? Your accusations of "lack of judgment" are personal attacks and your long-held Suspicion that I know more about the Burrows Cave is completely false. I have no further knowledge on them, other than I have stated in this and the B.C. thread. Perhaps "I reject this opinion" is a better way of putting a disagreement, and still being able to carry on this discussion.

Still, I am interested in learning more.  On Wednesday the 17th October in 1804, William Clark of the Lewis and Clark expedition recorded in his journal: “This Chief tells me of a number of their traditions about Turtles, Snakes, and the power of a particular rock or cave on the next river which informs of everything… none of those I think worth while mentioning.”

Why the objection between Buddhist (ancient china) and native linguistics. The turtle was an ancient symbol of cosmic order in many traditions, especially in china. So was the phoenix red-bird (see the Utz Tablet).
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/TABLETS/IOWA/?action=view&current=REVERSE.jpg

This is a similar mythological character of the native Thunderbird. So was the Puma, and the list goes on and on.

It is shown that the word for earth is turtle. In fact turtle carries the earth on its back in many myths and legends. Other native lingusitics studies show that the word for earth is the same as that for turtle.

"During the conquest, the Miami invited other peoples to be buffers between them and the Europeans. The Town of Piqua is named after the Piqua division of the Shawnee, and their final cone and ring earthwork may be seen just to the west of the trade house there."

On a more positive note, in as much as my history ended with the European arrival, I did not know earlier of the Lenape presence there at Piqua, nor of Clark's attack on them, nor of the slate which you showed with what appears to be a pictograph similar to one in the Walam Olum manuscript.

But then all would have to be examined in detail before any conclusion could be made."

Anyone interested can see close up examples of the Piqua Ketika figurines on the following link:

http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/TABLETS/Piqua/

[E.P. Grondine]

Mr. Grondine, Did you notice educatedindians request to avoid hurling insults, quit insulting each other and making personal attacks? Your accusations of "lack of judgment" are personal attacks and your long-held Suspicion that I know more about the Burrows Cave is completely false. I have no further knowledge on them, other than I have stated in this and the B.C. thread. Perhaps "I reject this opinion" is a better way of putting a disagreement, and still being able to carry on this discussion.

Yes, I noticed his request, and I noticed your earlier statement of having seen 30,000 tablets. The number of real tablets is far less. Thus I'm fairly certain you have seen all of Mt. Burrow's and his associates forgeries. Of course you may have made a mistatement or simply made a typo...

But given your own nature as revealed by the scope, intensity, and range of your search, and the lack of judgment with which you handle evidence, and their nearness to you, I am pretty certain that you have made your way to them, as we can see immediately below.

Still, I am interested in learning more.  On Wednesday the 17th October in 1804, William Clark of the Lewis and Clark expedition recorded in his journal: “This Chief tells me of a number of their traditions about Turtles, Snakes, and the power of a particular rock or cave on the next river which informs of everything… none of those I think worth while mentioning.”

Once again, you leave out the key information. Which Chief, which people, and which river?

The key point here is that either Mr. Burrows and his associates have desecrated a major burial, as they would have us believe, or they have been manufacturing fake NDN history.

In your judgment, Bubo Ahab, which is it?

Why the objection between Buddhist (ancient china) and native linguistics.

Because of the time of separation. You may not have noticed my mention in this thread of common Great Turtle traditions, and very early common ancestry.

But imaginary readings of cognates are common, and may be seen in Cyrus Gordon's work on Linear A which Shkaakwas mentioned here earlier. I was familiar with multiple examples of this behavior in early attempts to read Linear A - and many of your own cognate chains are either weak (distant) or spurious, in my opinion. LIke Shkaakwas having a Lenape Chief named after a house cat.

Anyone interested can see close up examples of the Piqua Ketika figurines on the following link:

http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/TABLETS/Piqua/

While I thank you for calling to our attention to these engravings, why are you referring to them as "Ketika figurines"?

I also want to thank you for your excellent images of the tablets from Cahokia.
And your reports of the desecration which went on there.

But Bubo Ahab, its simply the lack of boundaries, the way you lump it all together, that is your deficit, in my opinion.

If I was sent to look at the Walam Olam, I would look to track the Lenape mede first, as that is the key data. If I am lucky that work will fall to others, and I will be allowed to do more enjoyable work than tracking their deaths.

Besides, while I had a mind like a steel trap, it's a little rusty now... there's no point in gnawing your foot off; the tetanus will get you anyway...

[bls926]

Bls is again wrong and has proved nothing of disconnection between Lenape, Ojibway or Lakota. On the contrary, Bls has shown other random examples of glyphs on winter counts, glyphs on Copways Book, and more random examples of glyphs from the WO. Also Bls has proven nothing about the Ojibway heart berry basket. Only statements of thoughtless nay-saying, as usual.

I wasn't aware that you needed to pick only certain glyphs to compare. From Bubo's statement earlier, any random sample should be sufficient.

The Sacred Scrolls of the Southern Ojibway . . . Ojibwe

The Year the Stars Fell: Lakota Winter Counts at the Smithsonian . . . Lakota

So, why does Bubo mention either one in a discussion of the Walam Olum?

It is worthy to mention Ojibway and Lakota in discussion of the Walam Olum because each group used "Picture Writing" in recording their history.  The same phrases and symbols were actually used by these groups during important ceremonies, as shown above.  These groups also were "named" by Europeans and these names have little or nothing to do with who they actually were.

I asked Bubo several times to provide proof that these three Nations used the same pictures, with identical meanings. When he failed to post even one example, I did the research. I used the references Bubo gave to pick my random sample.

Copway's Traditional History of the Ojibway Nation, pgs 132 & 133: I posted pg 133.

The Ojibwe Birchbark Scrolls: I posted four examples.

The Year the Stars Fell: Lakota Winter Counts: I chose three different styles.


This was the only Ojibwe 'strawberry basket' I could find anywhere.

 2004


Traditional Ojibwe baskets

. . .

Again, Bls can read the book if interested in the heart berry symbolism beginning on page 103.
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Sacred%20Scrolls%20of%20the%20Southern%20Ojibway/?action=view&current=103.jpg

Although I've been thru the Marburg72 photobucket several times, I spent another hour today studying the glyphs. I could not find one berry. Bears, otters, owls, birds, trees, shells, boats, and people, but no berries. The only mention of strawberry is as it relates to death. Paths leading to a circle; Dewdney wasn't sure of the meaning, saying it might represent the Great Strawberry. No explanation was given for this statement. I spent another couple hours searching for any mention of strawberry in connection to the Ojibwe. Strawberries have medicinal uses. Boiled strawberry root cures stomach aches; boiled strawberry leaves stop diarrhea; the chewed leaves can also be used as a dressing for burns. June is the Strawberry Moon. I finally found another reference to strawberry in connection to death. In History of the Ojibway People, William W. Warren writes, "The soul is supposed to stand immediately after the death of the body, on a deep beaten path, which leads westward; the first object he comes to in following this path is the great Oda-e-min (Heart berry), or strawberry, which stands on the roadside like a huge rock, and from which he takes a handful and eats on his way." The soul continues to travel thru the prairie and after four days reaches the spirit world. Apparently the strawberry holds an important place in the lives of the Ojibwe; however there are no strawberry glyphs in the Sacred Scrolls. There is only a circle that Dewdney speculates may represent the Great Strawberry. There is definitely nothing about picking berries.

Bls response shows only that this person has not read the sources provided. Bls gender does not matter in this blog or conversation. Bls has constantly changed the subject, just as in this rant about your gender. Also, Bls has taken statements from other sources such as newspaper articles that I have transcribed and made false claims about this being something that I said.

I don't post until I've done my research. I think most people on this board know how meticulous I am. I pay attention to the little things, the details.

I don't make thoughtless comments; I don't ramble or go off topic. As I've stated before, I have not changed the subject once in this thread; my posts have been in response to allegations and assertions made by others. If someone posts something that is false, I'm not going to let it go unchallenged. Truth is very important to me.

My gender really isn't important; but the fact that Bubo missed the reference to me being a woman half-way thru this thread, says something about his ability to do accurate research. His continuing to refer to me as "he", after it was pointed out to him, shows an inability to remember details. Or was it disrespect? Women can't do research? Women can't debate? So, which was it? Inability to remember or disrespect?

I have not ascribed any words to Bubo other than the ones he actually said here on NAFPS. They're quoted with the date and time he wrote them. I have quoted excerpts from his website. These things appear on his site, without disclaimer. As Grondine says, "When referencing early finds, you hit the earlier erroneous interpretations of them by those who found them. But there is no point in repeating those errors, except in terms of what people thought at the time, and in documenting the finds themselves." No such explanation is given on his site. It seems the whole purpose for his website is to tie the Cahokia Mounds, the Piqua Mounds, the Welsh Butterfly, the Walam Olum, and numerous other glyphs from around the world together. This is a personal observation and I'm entitled to my opinion. I haven't posted anything found in newspaper articles in this thread.

I haven't made any false statements in this thread or any other. I don't lie. As I said before, truth is very important to me. I hold myself to the same standards that I hold everyone to. Half-truths and lies are unacceptable.

Bottom line is the evidence of the Walam Olum is given which proves that it is authentic.

I disagree with this statement. Nothing that Bubo has posted proves the authenticity of the Walam Olum.




Al, I am not going to edit any of my posts. Considering that Bubo questioned my intelligence and my ability to comprehend on numerous occasions, made false accusations about what I was posting, called me names and was generally rude and disrespectful, I was as polite as humanly possible. I request that no one's posts are edited, leave them as they are; and then lock this thread.

[E.P. Grondine]

I wasn't aware that you needed to pick only certain glyphs to compare. From Bubo's statement earlier, any random sample should be sufficient.

Yes, you do need to pick, and not to do so is not legitimate.

I don't post until I've done my research. I think most people on this board know how meticulous I am. I pay attention to the little things, the details.

In Bubo's defense, he shows Lenape at Piqua, and shows Lenape symbols on artifacts from there. You did not address them, and both need to be pursued.

But then there's the more significant detail that you missed entirely.

I don't make thoughtless comments; I don't ramble or go off topic.

I don't know about the first part, or we'd be further along in this by now.
I myself am rambling right on over to the Burrow's Cave ring of lying thieving con men.

Truth is very important to me.

Here's the truth then: "Reconstructing Rafinesque" and carefully examining Oestreicher's analysis of him may be discussed on a forum, but it is not something that can be done on a forum.

It will require resources (funds) and considerable time.

I have quoted excerpts from his website. These things appear on his site, without disclaimer. As Grondine says, "When referencing early finds, you hit the earlier erroneous interpretations of them by those who found them. But there is no point in repeating those errors, except in terms of what people thought at the time, and in documenting the finds themselves." No such explanation is given on his site. It seems the whole purpose for his website is to tie the Cahokia Mounds, the Piqua Mounds, the Welsh Butterfly, the Walam Olum, and numerous other glyphs from around the world together. This is a personal observation and I'm entitled to my opinion. I haven't posted anything found in newspaper articles in this thread.

You noticed that as well. Now what did that mean, bls?

Half-truths and lies are unacceptable.

Yes. And it goes way beyond simply being "unacceptable".

We're dealing with traditions here; I don't know if you can imagine how amazed I was to learn that  keeping those of the Shawnee belonged to my grandmother's division by right.

Nothing that Bubo has posted proves the authenticity of the Walam Olum.

Except the Piqua materials, possibly. But since we're dealing with traditions, what he presented requires deep consideration before being judged.

I was as polite as humanly possible.

I don't think so, otherwise Bubo would have shared more.

I request that no one's posts are edited, leave them as they are; and then lock this thread.

I do not want this thread locked.

Whoever aided in the manufacture of Burrow's frauds was/is intimately familiar with Fell's "studies", and with both legitimate and fraudulent symbols. Further, he had no care as to the difference, and as a matter of fact felt for some reason that manufacturing these frauds was proper behavior. In point of fact, he would duplicate known frauds to try and give them legitimacy, for some reason: perhaps to promote a fake NDN history, but certainly to obtain money and support.

I am fairly certain that Bubo has run into him and knows him quite well. If he searches into his soul, he will be able to identify him to us.

M'si Manitou, we humbly ask for your help.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

[bls926]

I wasn't aware that you needed to pick only certain glyphs to compare. From Bubo's statement earlier, any random sample should be sufficient.

Yes, you do need to pick, and not to do so is not legitimate.

Grondine, I think you have that backwards. If I have 100 glyphs to choose from, 25 in each category, I should be able to randomly pick 5 glyphs from each group. If I only pick the 2 or 3 that resemble each other as my sample, I'm stacking the deck. I'm not being objective. As it is, I gave more than 5 examples of each. There are some similarities; just as most stick figures resemble each other no matter who has drawn them.

I don't post until I've done my research. I think most people on this board know how meticulous I am. I pay attention to the little things, the details.

In Bubo's defense, he shows Lenape at Piqua, and shows Lenape symbols on artifacts from there. You did not address them, and both need to be pursued.

You're referring to the Piqua Mound Figurines found by J.A. Rayner? For your viewing pleasure, from Bubo's website . . .



http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/walamolum.htm

It's a square with an X in it. That's not very impressive. How can you call this a Lenape symbol? I've seen my four-year granddaughter make similar drawings and she isn't Lenape.

But then there's the more significant detail that you missed entirely.

And that would be?

I don't make thoughtless comments; I don't ramble or go off topic.

I don't know about the first part, or we'd be further along in this by now.
I myself am rambling right on over to the Burrow's Cave ring of lying thieving con men.

This statement was in reply to Bubo's accusations that I had taken this thread off topic. I'm not the one who brought up the Lakota Winter Counts or the Ojibwe Strawberry Heart basket. While neither has anything to do with the Walam Olum, I had to address them or leave others with the impression that somehow they gave credence to the Walam Olum.

Truth is very important to me.

Here's the truth then: "Reconstructing Rafinesque" and carefully examining Oestreicher's analysis of him may be discussed on a forum, but it is not something that can be done on a forum.

It will require resources (funds) and considerable time.

Scholars have been questioning the authenticity of the Walam Olum since shortly after Rafinesque published it. Many studies have been done. By the 1980's and 1990's most intelligent people knew it to be a hoax.

I have quoted excerpts from his website. These things appear on his site, without disclaimer. As Grondine says, "When referencing early finds, you hit the earlier erroneous interpretations of them by those who found them. But there is no point in repeating those errors, except in terms of what people thought at the time, and in documenting the finds themselves." No such explanation is given on his site. It seems the whole purpose for his website is to tie the Cahokia Mounds, the Piqua Mounds, the Welsh Butterfly, the Walam Olum, and numerous other glyphs from around the world together. This is a personal observation and I'm entitled to my opinion. I haven't posted anything found in newspaper articles in this thread.

You noticed that as well. Now what did that mean, bls?

To provide information that has been proven false or that most learned men know is inaccurate, without disclaimer, says to me that either Bubo believes it or that his research is sloppy.

Half-truths and lies are unacceptable.

Yes. And it goes way beyond simply being "unacceptable".

We're dealing with traditions here; I don't know if you can imagine how amazed I was to learn that  keeping those of the Shawnee belonged to my grandmother's division by right.

We agree on something.

Nothing that Bubo has posted proves the authenticity of the Walam Olum.

Except the Piqua materials, possibly. But since we're dealing with traditions, what he presented requires deep consideration before being judged.

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions after looking at the two Piqua Figurines. A square with an X inside does not a tradition make.

I was as polite as humanly possible.

I don't think so, otherwise Bubo would have shared more.

Well, maybe he couldn't answer the hard questions. He was starting to repeat himself. Honestly, I think Bubo had already given us everything he had.

I request that no one's posts are edited, leave them as they are; and then lock this thread.

I do not want this thread locked.

My opinion on this hasn't changed.

Whoever aided in the manufacture of Burrow's frauds was/is intimately familiar with Fell's "studies", and with both legitimate and fraudulent symbols. Further, he had no care as to the difference, and as a matter of fact felt for some reason that manufacturing these frauds was proper behavior. In point of fact, he would duplicate known frauds to try and give them legitimacy, for some reason: perhaps to promote a fake NDN history, but certainly to obtain money and support.

I am fairly certain that Bubo has run into him and knows him quite well. If he searches into his soul, he will be able to identify him to us.

M'si Manitou, we humbly ask for your help.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

How can you get your boxers in a bunch over the Burrow's Cave hoax and support the Walam Olum? Fraud is fraud; it doesn't mater if it happened in 1836 or the present day. A lie is a lie.

[BuboAhab]

Grondine, I think you have that backwards. If I have 100 glyphs to choose from, 25 in each category, I should be able to randomly pick 5 glyphs from each group. If I only pick the 2 or 3 that resemble each other as my sample, I'm stacking the deck. I'm not being objective. As it is, I gave more than 5 examples of each. There are some similarities; just as most stick figures resemble each other no matter who has drawn them.

This is the basis for Bls misinterpretation. Bls is expressing many opinions that apparently contradict each other. Which is it Bls?
a. all stick figures resemble each other no matter who draws them
b. 2 or 3 glyphs resemble each other in each sample
c. just pick 5 random samples from each
The correct answer is b. More than that actually are the same glyph in the examples that I have given. This cannot be attributed to chance, beause they are specific glyphs with meaning.

as for your claim "picking berries", which is it Bls?
a. no berries shown on scrolls
b. There is only a circle that Dewdney speculates may represent the Great Strawberry
c. heart berry baskets didnt exist because they look different than other random baskets
Again, the correct answer is b. Actually dewdney shows several examples and Bls included supporting Ojibway ethnographic text to explain the Oda-e-min (Heart berry) tradition.

Bls did not have permission to copy my website. Bls missed a key point about the Ketika Figurines, that they are apprently not just an X with a square around it. The first stone has a white circle inserted solidly through the center, Same as glyph 2 of the Walam Olum, the next matches Glyph 4.

Also, there is something going on at woodland indians forum regarding this topic and my website. Apparently that moderators have locked out their blog. Over the last few weeks, many have arrived on my website from this link:
http://woodlandindians.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6023&p=3

Yet, when this link is clicked on, it is locked out to public viewing. Why is this blog actively discussing and linking to my webpage with no access to the general public. Could it be that Bls is involved with previous editors that have been booted off this blog?

[bls926]

Grondine, I think you have that backwards. If I have 100 glyphs to choose from, 25 in each category, I should be able to randomly pick 5 glyphs from each group. If I only pick the 2 or 3 that resemble each other as my sample, I'm stacking the deck. I'm not being objective. As it is, I gave more than 5 examples of each. There are some similarities; just as most stick figures resemble each other no matter who has drawn them.

This is the basis for Bls misinterpretation. Bls is expressing many opinions that apparently contradict each other. Which is it Bls?
a. all stick figures resemble each other no matter who draws them
b. 2 or 3 glyphs resemble each other in each sample
c. just pick 5 random samples from each
The correct answer is b. More than that actually are the same glyph in the examples that I have given. This cannot be attributed to chance, beause they are specific glyphs with meaning.

I haven't contradicted myself; you're just twisting it in an attempt to validate your research.

Are there really more than a couple similar (not identical) glyphs in each group? And do any of them have the exact same meaning? I don't think so.

as for your claim "picking berries", which is it Bls?
a. no berries shown on scrolls
b. There is only a circle that Dewdney speculates may represent the Great Strawberry
c. heart berry baskets didnt exist because they look different than other random baskets
Again, the correct answer is b. Actually dewdney shows several examples and Bls included supporting Ojibway ethnographic text to explain the Oda-e-min (Heart berry) tradition.

Dewdney speculates that the circle represented the Oda-e-min. He wasn't sure and obviously no Ojibwe were able to confirm it either. Could it be that he has transcribed the glyphs in the Birchbark Scrolls to fit, giving them meanings that tie into their traditions? Maybe.

Bls did not have permission to copy my website. Bls missed a key point about the Ketika Figurines, that they are apprently not just an X with a square around it. The first stone has a white circle inserted solidly through the center, Same as glyph 2 of the Walam Olum, the next matches Glyph 4.

Your website is public. I don't need your permission to re-post pictures or written words, as long as I give credit and a link to the source. I did both.

Also, there is something going on at woodland indians forum regarding this topic and my website. Apparently that moderators have locked out their blog. Over the last few weeks, many have arrived on my website from this link:
http://woodlandindians.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6023&p=3

Yet, when this link is clicked on, it is locked out to public viewing. Why is this blog actively discussing and linking to my webpage with no access to the general public. Could it be that Bls is involved with previous editors that have been booted off this blog?

Everything on a message board does not have to be public. Some areas are for the general public, some for members only, some for moderators, some for administrators. Yes, Bubo, you are a member of Woodland; still doesn't mean you or the general public has open access.

[BuboAhab]

Bls statements are apparently direct contradictions and also not valid in any scientific sense. Bls rediculous reasoning is on a par with taking a few random letters or words from one book and comparing it with a few letters or words from another source. Then bls is saying that both sources could not possibly be in the same language.

Bls statement "obviously no Ojibwe were able to confirm it either" is also false because Dewdney and Objibway Elder Red Sky worked together in writing the book.

By the way, if you do wish to use in your Web site a graphic, picture, or paragraph from another Web site, current Netiquette dictates that you ask permission before using it. Bls did not ask permission, and Bls may not use it.

Also, I only joined Woodland indians forum to see if I could find out what was being discussed in the forum that is constantly referring viewers to my webiste. It is suspicious that Bls private "woodland" indians forum is being used in unethical ways.

[E.P. Grondine]

Scholars have been questioning the authenticity of the Walam Olum since shortly after Rafinesque published it. Many studies have been done. By the 1980's and 1990's most intelligent people knew it to be a hoax.

Oh really? Not by the year 2000, and not by the year 2009, as a matter of fact.

I have stated here my problems with Oestreicher's work on the Walam Olum, and the reasons why I will hold with those Lenape elders who hold that it contains a portion.

To provide information that has been proven false or that most learned men know is inaccurate, without disclaimer, says to me that either Bubo believes it or that his research is sloppy.

Excuse me, there is a difference between proven false and what "most learned men" THINK inaccurate. That distinction is lost on you.

For example, for many years I wrote about impact events, and the peoples' memories of them. Many "learned men" thought those memories to be nonsense, and that I was "inaccurate".

The hard geological data is now showing them to have been mistaken in their
conclusions.

We're dealing with traditions here.

We agree on something.

Yes, so you will understand that besides his statements on the Walam Olum and Oneota, I have real problems with Oestreicher's imaginary history of the Shawnee.

A square with an X inside does not a tradition make.

Based on years of playing with Hittite Hieroglyphic, Cretan Hieroglyphic, Linear A, and Linear B, I am capable of forming my own opinion.

I have never considered Native American pictographic systems in any depth.

I was as polite as humanly possible.

I don't think so, otherwise Bubo would have shared more.

Well, maybe he couldn't answer the hard questions. He was starting to repeat himself. Honestly, I think Bubo had already given us everything he had.

Oh, he can answer the hard questions; its simply that you do not know what the hard questions are yet. And he has not given us everything he has.

I request that no one's posts are edited, leave them as they are; and then lock this thread.

I do not want this thread locked.

My opinion on this hasn't changed.

Whoever aided in the manufacture of Burrow's frauds was/is intimately familiar with Fell's "studies", and with both legitimate and fraudulent symbols. Further, he had no care as to the difference, and as a matter of fact felt for some reason that manufacturing these frauds was proper behavior. In point of fact, he would duplicate known frauds to try and give them legitimacy, for some reason: perhaps to promote a fake NDN history, but certainly to obtain money and support.

I am fairly certain that Bubo has run into him and knows him quite well. If he searches into his soul, he will be able to identify him to us.

How can you get your boxers in a bunch over the Burrow's Cave hoax and support the Walam Olum? Fraud is fraud; it doesn't mater if it happened in 1836 or the present day. A lie is a lie.

Again, I have set out here my reasons for my problems with Oestreicher's analysis. You simply repeating "fraud" over and over again have not changed any of them.

Now I have a question for you, bls. Considering the date Rafinesque worked on the Walam Olum, if he were constructing a fraud, how could he have been certain that there were no living Lenape who could and would expose him?

As far as Burrows Cave goes, perhaps you should ask educated indian or someone else for a copy of "Amazing Stories".

[E.P. Grondine]

The correct answer is b. More than that actually are the same glyph in the examples that I have given. This cannot be attributed to chance, because they are specific glyphs with meaning.

Bls missed a key point about the Ketika Figurines, that they are apparently not just an X with a square around it. The first stone has a white circle inserted solidly through the center, Same as glyph 2 of the Walam Olum, the next matches Glyph 4.

Bubo, your ability with pictoglyphic systems is pretty poor as well.

Bls did not have permission to copy my website.

Bubo, you don't own any tradition, or any image of any object. Period.

They are NOT yours to own.

Also, there is something going on at woodland indians forum regarding this topic and my website. Apparently that moderators have locked out their blog. Over the last few weeks, many have arrived on my website from this link:
http://woodlandindians.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6023&p=3

Yet, when this link is clicked on, it is locked out to public viewing. Why is this blog actively discussing and linking to my webpage with no access to the general public. Could it be that Bls is involved with previous editors that have been booted off this blog?

The moderators here are still the moderators here, Bubo.

As far as the visitors to your website go, perhaps its something else entirely that is interesting them, Bubo.

Tom Hanks and Leonardo di Caprio did a fine movie a few years back called "Catch Me If You Can".

[bls926]

By the way, if you do wish to use in your Web site a graphic, picture, or paragraph from another Web site, current Netiquette dictates that you ask permission before using it. Bls did not ask permission, and Bls may not use it.

Also, I only joined Woodland indians forum to see if I could find out what was being discussed in the forum that is constantly referring viewers to my webiste. It is suspicious that Bls private "woodland" indians forum is being used in unethical ways.

I want to clear up a couple things. Woodland Indians is not my forum. I am a member and one of the administrators, but it is not mine.

Historiography of Cahokia From the Earliest Times to European Arrival is a public website. I don't need your permission. Get over it and move on. Whining about it is not going to change the facts. Making excuses for why you joined Woodland is not strengthening your case. Put your big boy boxers on and grow up.

By the way, the only things I've copied from your website were posted right here on NAFPS in this thread; used to prove your theories wrong.

When your allegations of illegal activity didn't hold up, you resorted to attacking my character, stating that "It is suspicious that Bls private "woodland" indians forum is being used in unethical ways". Neither is true; there is nothing suspicious nor unethical going on at Woodland. In your attempt to win this debate over the Walam Olum, you have questioned my ability to comprehend and my intelligence. You have called my comments thoughtless and ridiculous. Apparently all that is okay, cause you were 'critiquing' what I'd posted. However, accusing me of unethical behavior is wrong. Bubo, you crossed the line. Do not attempt to smear my reputation again.