The Red Record

[BuboAhab]

And now we get down to it. Speaking of ignoring evidence, over on the Burrow's Cave fraud, Vince.

Ed, What evidence have you presented? I have seen none.

[Tberri]

Coming in late to this facinating thread I was curious about a few things. Maybe someone could clarify a few loose ends for me.
In the fleeting references to the Lenape mediwak it struck me that the term is awfully similar to Megwa. Which would seem to be closer to the Lenape culture than the annishabi Mediwin.(sp) society.

Another coinsidental theme has been the flood/ cultural references, yet no one correlated it to the same story the Mohawk have along the St.Lawrence river. As far as cataclysmic events go.

Again in no particular order, altho there was mention of the "green bridge" as a possible migration route, how would you reconcile this with the Tunit, or Thule peoples or even the Beothunk/Micmac? Seeing as there aren't oral stories or hints to an influx of native peoples from the east?

I have been wondering despite all the diverse opinions on the validity of the Wallum Olum the common thread of all the posters seems to be backtracking thru time to the origins of Lenape as a people. Debating whether the WO is a legitimate roadmap of sorts seems to be more of a way to avoid digging for the Lenape origins.

That is maybe too simplistic a way to  look at things.

another question I had , well more an observation , is the Anishabe Mediwin have been more forthcoming in the release of some of their knowledge. Robert Blackwolf's book" Listening to the Drum" is an example of that. Another was the return of some scrolls to the Annishabe of Pic River Reserve from a museum in Ottowa during a public Pow-Wow. Another prime example would be via the artwork of Norval Morresseau as some of it comes with the Medi explaination of the symbols contained within.
 
I mean no disrespect, these are just questions that occured to me as I read thru the thread.

[E.P. Grondine]

Coming in late to this fascinating thread I was curious about a few things. Maybe someone could clarify a few loose ends for me.

In the fleeting references to the Lenape mediwak it struck me that the term is awfully similar to Megwa. Which would seem to be closer to the Lenape culture than the annishabi Mediwin.(sp) society.

Bear?  I don't know about that. But then I don't know the etymology, or if there is one, or if it is a root word.

Oneota should have come into contact with Mississipian historical pictographics about 1000 CE.

I set out what it would take in the way of resources to track the Lenape medewak through the conquest.

Another coinsidental theme has been the flood/ cultural references, yet no one correlated it to the same story the Mohawk have along the St.Lawrence river. As far as cataclysmic events go.

Which Mohawk flood tradition are you referring to?

Again in no particular order, altho there was mention of the "green bridge" as a possible migration route, how would you reconcile this with the Tunit, or Thule peoples or even the Beothunk/Micmac? Seeing as there aren't oral stories or hints to an influx of native peoples from the east?

Excuse me, but there are multiple traditions of the red paint peoples arrival held by many peoples.  Separately, I seem to remember that in Ketowah tradition there is a very different tradition of a migration to the east.

If memory serves, Thule were pretty much extincted by Norse diseases around 1275 CE.

I can't speak to Beothunk/Micmac.

I have been wondering despite all the diverse opinions on the validity of the Wallum Olum the common thread of all the posters seems to be backtracking thru time to the origins of Lenape as a people. Debating whether the WO is a legitimate roadmap of sorts seems to be more of a way to avoid digging for the Lenape origins.

That is maybe too simplistic a way to  look at things.

A simple way is a perfectly valid way. You can start with Lenape villages at contact, and work back to the Great Turtle traditions.

another question I had , well more an observation , is the Anishabe Mediwin have been more forthcoming in the release of some of their knowledge. Robert Blackwolf's book" Listening to the Drum" is an example of that. Another was the return of some scrolls to the Annishabe of Pic River Reserve from a museum in Ottowa during a public Pow-Wow. Another prime example would be via the artwork of Norval Morresseau as some of it comes with the Medi explaination of the symbols contained within.
 
I mean no disrespect, these are just questions that occurred to me as I read thru the thread.

These releases are happening more and more, and in my view it is a good thing, as it stops some very confused people from making up their own imaginary histories.

One can key the Tradition of the Shells using the dates established in my book "Man and Impact in the Americas". The journey west starts ca 350 CE. If I can get permission, raise the funds, and M'si Manitou allows, I will include this and other Three Fires materials in a second edition.

Paselo -
Ed

[Tberri]

I'm not referring to the term "Megwa" as bear, altho I understand in some native languages that's exactly what it means. My spelling of the word may be off, as I'm not fluent in Lenape language. I backtracked "Megwa" as one of the creation beings similar to a " Manitou" via a trip to the Renape Reserve in NJ.
As for the Lenape ceremonial societies I was thinking your reference to the Mediwak seemed more a derivitive of the Lenape creation being than the Annishabe term.

Being neither a historian, or scholar(SP) after reading the Red Record, and in my travels visiting those very facinating carvings at Judiculla rock, the one at Sanilac MI, and the rock at Kelly's Island I was a bit confused as how Lenape pictoglyphs could be present, but not within the replica of the Red Record.

Of Course I could be putting two and two together and getting six.

You seem to be doing your backtracking of history from "contact" back....I went the other route of using oral history and then tying it to historical events.
But seriously, it's not like I'm an expert or anything.

[E.P. Grondine]

I'm not referring to the term "Megwa" as bear, altho I understand in some native languages that's exactly what it means. My spelling of the word may be off, as I'm not fluent in Lenape language. I backtracked "Megwa" as one of the creation beings similar to a " Manitou" via a trip to the Renape Reserve in NJ.
As for the Lenape ceremonial societies I was thinking your reference to the Mediwak seemed more a derivitive of the Lenape creation being than the Annishabe term.

Being neither a historian, or scholar(SP) after reading the Red Record, and in my travels visiting those very facinating carvings at Judiculla rock, the one at Sanilac MI, and the rock at Kelly's Island I was a bit confused as how Lenape pictoglyphs could be present, but not within the replica of the Red Record.

Of Course I could be putting two and two together and getting six.

You seem to be doing your backtracking of history from "contact" back....I went the other route of using oral history and then tying it to historical events.
But seriously, it's not like I'm an expert or anything.

Hi Tberri -

It wasn't backtracking. Let me try to explain what came to me.

My project started out as a simple catalogue of impact events in the Americas to try and establish as accurately as possible the hazard to peoples' lives. Then I realized:
1) That most of the histories I was quoting were unavailable
2) That many of them had been dismissed as "myths" because they described impact events
3) That I had an incredibly powerful tool.

I used comet impacts to place the traditions (oral histories) in time and space, and then to lock them onto the archaeological record. Cusick's "Sketches of the Ancient History of the Six Nations" and his counts of the wampum were really key in this.

Re: Judaculi Rock, The Cherokee were describing Tsunihl'gul, the giants, actually the Andaste proper, as the carvers.  The nearby soapstone bowls indicate the same.

If you turn the picture shown of it upside down, (so the farmer is upside down), it looks like it was not hands that were shown, but comets with multiple tails.  Why this rock was chosen was probably because of the soapstone. Why the other markings were made, including The Great Turtle shown nearby, and the man with the elk horn staff, I do not know. They were probably later additions.

http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/rock_art/judaculla.html

The same kind of comet/hands may be seen at Sanilac, but these perhaps date from the 536 CE encounter with Comet Encke, and the subseqent game collapse caused by the climate effects of its dust veil. Note the bows and arrows(?).

Kell(e)y's Island - in the right place for Andaste.

One big problem with petrogyphs is later additions, and that seldom are any datable artifacts or other cultural remains found with them.

That said, minimally I think one can assert that these petroglyphs are not Lenape.

As far as Lenape origins goes, in my opinion like most Algonquin peoples they probably started as sea turtle hunters along what were before 10,900 BCE the balmy shores of today's British Columbia. mt DNA haplogroup A.

But as I have been wrong before, and I reserve the right to be wrong about this as well. It's simply the best estimate I can form now.

As for the Walam Olum, my offer of a trade with Oestreicher still stands, and I will still hold with those Lenape who hold that it contains a portion. I can not accept Oestreicher's denial of the earlier existence of Lenape medewak; their fate is of interest to me.

I also can not accept Oestreicher's reconstruction of Shawnee history, period.

Unfortunately I will miss being with the Lenape at the Anderson powwow this year, as I will be with Shawnee descendants in Ohio. I really enjoyed it there last year, particularly the social dances late at night. I am sure they will have a good powwow. I hope some day to visit their Allegheny Reservation.

[NanticokePiney]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/10108406/The-Banner-Stone-Conundrum

  I missed this. This sets back studies of the Piedmont Culture 30 years!!! You have obliviously never visited a archaeology site let alone read a report. Bannerstones have been found in situ with their Antler hooks and handles. They have also been found unfinished, in large caches. Very few found on the East Coast have been engraved. They were probably considered the "Power" behind the atlatl so "heirloom" bannerstones that were broken were sometimes  reworked into, or used as ornaments.
  Boatstones have been found on the East Coast on Adena-Middlesex sites. Birdstones on Meadowood sites.
 

[BuboAhab]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/10108406/The-Banner-Stone-Conundrum

I missed this. This sets back studies of the Piedmont Culture 30 years!!!  

[/quote]
Coe's Formative Cultures of the Carolina Piedmont did not describe any finds of the hook and weight found together but instead stated:
"Atlatl Weights: One of the more unusual finds at the Gaston Site was a series of small stone objects that resembled the half of a large hickory nut. These objects were unusually oval in plan and hemispherical in section..."

At the hardaway site, Coe described a single antler hook found in a separate square than some drilled stones, and Coe conflated the two by putting them together in one photograph on page 81.

You have obliviously never visited a archaeology site let alone read a report.

I reject the ipse dixit assumption that bannerstones were "Thought to be weights for spear throwers".  Problems with the assumption include bannerstone weight is too heavy for an effective spear thrower. Secondly, the drilled hole size is too small to go around the stick of a spear thrower. Third, the placement of majority of bannerstone with burials does not support a merely functional use. Fourth, the copper plates such as the Rogan, Wulfing, and Peoria plates shown with bannerstone shapes in the top-of head area of human figures with full regalia. Evidence just does not support the Atl-atl assumption for most types.

Bannerstones have been found in situ with their Antler hooks and handles.

The singular type found in situ with antler hooks were "hourglass" shaped bannerstones from the Indian Knoll Site. If you know of any other types found with antler hooks, please provide sources. As far as I know, the remaining 35 styles of bannerstones were not found with antler hooks.

They have also been found unfinished, in large caches.

Lutz and Harvey show many examples of three variations found together with burials.

Very few found on the East Coast have been engraved.

Engraved bannerstones are among the rarest of all artifacts. The bannerstone conundrum report shows three figurally engraved examples. Dozens of others have been found that were engraved, and some with very light geometric designs are shown by Lutz.

They were probably considered the "Power" behind the atlatl so "heirloom" bannerstones that were broken were sometimes  reworked into, or used as ornaments.

Powerful indeed, heirlooms, possibly,

 Boatstones have been found on the East Coast on Adena-Middlesex sites. Birdstones on Meadowood sites.
 

My hypothesis is that Boatstones were used as rattles. Source:
http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/tejas/ancestors/images/jshort5.html

My guess is that Birdstones may have been bridal headdress adornments.

[PATRICK LAVALLEY]

I have a copy of Bodewatomi Walam Olum handwritten, translated and added to by the Mide, Shup Shewana of Chicago. His Walam Olum was (published) in doutangs for the Potawatomi Nation in Canada or the Northern Lakes Pottawatomi. Being from a Bodewatomi family myself, we were entitled to a copy. I poured over it many times. Over the years, I have had three copies of Shepshe's walam Olum. My brother's uncle, who was a student of his recognized my interest in history and suggested I go to Chicago and learn from him myself. Sadly, Shepshe passed before I could learn from him. I did however, learn many things from his Walam Olum. Shepshe provided a scroll which was not a part of the Walam Olum provided to Samuel Rafinesque. He also added: about a dozen Midewewin Scrolls which teach medicines and ceremonies; a Sacred Alphabet and a common alphabet; basic numerical characters 1-10, 100, 1000, and legends which he properly placed with the correct ideogram. To date, I have read every published version and excerpt since I was sixteen (1984). Shepshe's version is unique in that it is a translation based on the retelling of it in his Bodewatomi language. Interestingly, his translation is from a known LIVING language which gives (in its inherent way) some direction as to the validity and mistranslations of non-Native versions. Over the last six years I have focused on the Walam Olum and the trouble with translations. I have read David Oestreicher and David McCutchen's works. There is something which all the historians and academics have missed, and that is the Walam Olum which has come to us through rafinesque is actually out of order and is the history of at least two Record Keepers (one Lenape and the other potentially Nishnawbeg). It only makes sense that historians consider it a hoax if the timeline does not add up.

[apukjij]

hi patrick, thanks for this post. maybe you can clear up some of the questions i have on the Walam Olum. first how and when did Midewiwin Scrolls get mixed up in the Rafinesque material objects. when you look at pics of the objects in the Walam olum and compare then to the Midewiwin Scrolls (which were added later) they are markedly different to my eyes. As well the migration story flies in the face of Mi'kmaq Oral Tradition, which states (as told in the Seven Fires Prophecy) that the Mi'kmaq Nation split into two, this great Exodus occured 92 generations ago (according to the Midewiwin Grandmothers who came to the Maritimes and visited us last year) and were sent West later to create the Nations of Ojibwa, Odawa, Potawatomi, Algonquin, Nipissing and the Mississaugas. So these progeny of the Mi'kmaq Nation originated here in the Maritimes, not the bering strait as stated in the Walam olum. Does the Tradition that Shepshe relates match the the tale as told in the Rafinesque??

[PATRICK LAVALLEY]

Hello, Apukjij,
I think your question cuts to the heart of this puzzle. I think I can clear most of this up, but, unfortunately, there are stilll elements of this story that I am still unclear of. I will post my response in parts.

In most books, the 'sticks' which the Walam Olum were carved were said to have been given to Rafinesque as a curiosity by a Dr. Ward from Indiana. A researcher has discovered that Dr. Ward is actually from Kentucky, so the search for corroborating evidence or social history on the circumstances of the Walam Olum making its way to Dr. Ward should begin in local museums/archives/libraries there.

[PATRICK LAVALLEY]

The Midewewin Scrolls do look different from the Walam Olum, but that is not to say that the Walam Olum are not a Midewewin. Confusing I know. First, let me say, that the Walam Olum PREDATES the Midewewin in North America. The invention of Wiigwaas Scrolls occurred perhaps 500 B.C. by Olumapi Red Paint Man/Tally Maker; the invention of the Mamalekhikan 'Crooked Lines' (alphabet and handwriting) by Lekhihitin 'The writer/recorder occurred in A.D. 415. As a teenager, I re-learned the skill of beadwork from my mother. As a beadworker, I learned that our use of beads came from earlier quillwork and the patterns from nature as in our floral patterns. The florals developed into curve-linear designs which all the Woodland Peoples use and in time, elements of these made their way into the Mamalekhikan and national symbols. Another element of (ideograms) came from early times in human history that I cannot yet date to any era (yet). I do know in most every and probably every North American tribal nation, symbols during ceremonies were drawn on the floor of the Midewikan or Big House of the Nishnawbeg and Lenape, the Hopi made coloured sand paintings on the floor of their Kivas, the southeastern people also drew with sticks in the soil to explain such things as ceremonial dancing patterns. Many of these images were drawn to explain the Creation Story as remembered by the different tribal nations. So, I think from these types of early archetypal/base imagery, more sophisticated images developed.

When Olumapi invented the scrolls, the Creation story and Migration Story were then written down in ideograms. There was no Mamalekhikan at that time so there would be no accompanying transcript until Lekhihitin. It is my assertion that the Midewewin did not arrive in North America until A.D. 1035 [under a working dating system that I have used (which I won’t divulge just yet)] I believe that the Creation knowledge in the Walam Olum came to us [Nishnawbeg and Lenapewak] from two different directions; the scrolls from the west, through migration and the Midewewin from the east. It is said that the Midewewin came ‘from the Middle of the Earth’; when we Latinize the starting location of the Society it then becomes ‘Mediterranean’. The imagery and knowledge, separated by thousands of years and directional migration can then account for the difference in style of scroll imagery.

Also, the Scrolls were used for different purposes, the songs of the Creation and Migration Walam Olum should be seen more as the spine on which the Medicinal, various malicious spells, Ceremonial Lodge layouts and further histories can be added to.

[E.P. Grondine]

Hello Patrick, apukjij -

I am sorry that I missed reading all the valuable information that you passed on here at the time you passed it on, and that I am only now just catching up. I hope you find the following of value.

First, my guess is that the Three Fires and other nations first saw the use of pictoglyphs when they were brought up from the East Coast of Mexico by the Haustecan ancestors of the Natchez around 300 CE. They were under attack from Teotihuancan, and the Teotihuacanos later conquered the Mayan city of  Tikal in 378 CE. This pictoglyphic technique then spread up the Mississippi River, which may account for your 415 CE date (via the Wabash and Ohio Rivers) and 1035 CE date (via the Mississippi River). The other peoples then adopted their own symbols for similar use. The 1035 CE date is also the time R.'s Walam Olum starts to become far more specific in details.

On the other hand, the Five Nations remembered a European contact around 350 CE, which may account for the alphabet.

I am reluctant to comment on "the middle of the Earth" until I have examined it in more detail, but it may reflect Canadian Maritime Archaic (Andaste) influence ca 400 BCE, or maybe not. The Andaste are associated with early petroglyphs.

Second, it is likely that Rafinesque received the Lenape sticks from Dr. Ward Cook Senior, who was visiting Anderson, Indiana as the Lenape were being gathered and sent west and their land was stolen from them and sold. He bought some for his sons. That Chief Anderson could not be midewin because he was of mixed blood was clearly remembered locally. Perhaps the Lenape mede who had survived to this point had died.

Third, I am glad to have someone else here comment on Oestreicher's work. While it is clear that Rafinesque did more than little "reconstruction" as was common for academics in his time, what he was working from is the important point that Oestreicher missed entirely, IMO.

The Lenape may be linked to Oneota material culture in the mid-west, Wellsburg material culture in Ohio, and Monongahela Late Woodland material culture in Pennsylvania and Maryland.

On a personal note, Oestreicher's version of Shawnee history is junk, to put it bluntly, or "very, very mistaken", to put it more politely. Patrick, I hope that you will be able to contend with Oestreicher's confusion here, as I wish to devote most of the resources I have to recovering and preserving Shawnee history instead of Lenape.

On a deeper level, apukjij, the common A mt DNA of the Alqonquian and Siouxian
peoples indicates their survival of the YD impacts of 10,900 BCE on the Pacific coast of Canada for the Algonquian, hence the "Great (Sea) Turtle", and in the inland hunting strip for the Sioux. The migration east appears to come almost immediately afterward.

[E.P. Grondine]

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/illinois/article_8d654142-f6a5-5940-a690-d0556c70593a.html

[Hitakonanoolaxk]

Hay, NAFPS Forum Readers!

     I am Hitakonanoolaxk, a Lenape descendant, and member of the Big Horn Lenape, a Tribe of non-Federally recognized Lenape. I am an author of a book of Lenape stories, titled "the Grandfathers Speak".
     I did not include in my book a translation of the Walam Olum as I didn't feel at the time/ 1994 that I could attempt it. Now, after years of compiling a Dictionary of Old Eastern Unami(what many refer to as Northern Unami) from Moravian Sources, Zeisberger, Heckewelder, etc. i am undertaking an attempt. Would be glad to share what I come up with.
     My Uncle Clarence Chamberlain told me of pictographic symbols drawn in red that were used by our Lenape ancestors long ago and often painted onto wood, rocks and even trees. I have no doubt that the Walam Olum  is authentic, but it is possible that the Lenape words were attempts by Rafinesque to translate English into Lenape. I do not believe that the whole thing is a fabrication. Oestreicher's work is not the end to the controversy by any means!
     The Anishinabe have a migration /chibimoodaywin  story of their own. Where we Lenape eventually went to the Atlantic Ocean, the Ojibwe/Anishinabe tell how they left the East Coast because of some Sacred Vision and followed their prophets to go to the Great Lakes, which they did via the St. lawrence River. Many do not know of this story, but I have heard it more than once from traditional Anishinabe.
     Another interesting item concerns  Lenape Pipe traditions related to me, in that our Pipe Ceremony starts in the North. When i asked why(as most start in the East), I was told "so that we would always remember where we came from in a time long ago".(Wape Gokhos) My Uncle told me that Our People in a time long ago came from the North due to some great natural catastrophe, that we first went west, but came back east, crossing the Mississippi and to the Ocean. He also said that we brought the bones of our dead with us and that we used big dogs to pull these.
     I think there is more than just a little truth to the Walam Olum.

                                                                      Wawooleemileseel! Hitakonanoolaxk

[Hair lady]

hi

I am also a lenape person. My mother was of the wolf clan Unami lenape. I can speak this language but can not spell it. I grew up thinking that there were somewhere tons of Lenape peoples on some reservation, and that they could all speak the Language! LOL
I am not so sure about the red record. I have to say i have never really researched it. I only know the stories that my mother told me.
I am aware of the story of coming from the north and then going down south and then across the mississippi, and to the east. But my Grandpa said it was because of a great sickness that killed a lot of people. I wish I would have written down everything back then. I can´t remember all of the details..I do however remeber pipe stories, and have a pipe myself. I also remeber masks and they did in fact have red paint on them, but I don´t know of what it was made.  My mother taught me lots of things, but I am not sure if they were 100 prcent tradtionaly correct, how could I be? hehe we are all so mixed now a days.
What I don´t like is the digging up of artifacts, I feel like they shoudl remain were they are. The thought of digging them uop makes me very uncomfortable.