Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY

[JosephSWM]

I guess I must have confused more than just the two of you. The Nuyagi Keetowah Society which is incorporated in the state of New York, is not run by Ray Harrell but it is this group (the one with Ray) that legally is the Nuyagi Keetowah Society. The other group, headed by David Michael Wolfe is legally non existent.

There are probably many here on this website from all across the country that have had some negative encounter with DMW.

And yes, what goes on at the Nuyagi Stomp Grounds is real. Being sanctioned by the CNO, well, hmmm, does it matter? Not to me.

I have found NAFPS a valuable website in exposing frauds such Harley Regan, Mary Thunder and on and on. These are people who not only take people's  money but break many written laws along the way. The Nuyagi Keetowah never have and never will fall into this classification.

Anyway, if anyone wants to write to me privately about this with questions I will answer what I can.

Joseph

[Moma_porcupine]

This discussion troubles me . I only know these people through what they have posted about themselves , so it a bit awkward to respond to this specific situation in a fair way , but some of the underlying principals are bothering me ....

I feel sympathy for people of Native descent who end up living away from their tribe in an urban area .  

The problem is ,  urban areas often don't have the natural checks and balances that are found in a continuously existing Native community . It is a lot easier for imposters to worm their way into an urban community without being noticed.  People do get hurt by frauds .

Questions like ; "Who is your family , what are their names , what tribe are you from , who in your tribe knows you , who taught you , and who in your tribe would recognize this person as a qualified teacher ?" are all necessary questions to ask in urban areas .  One thing about this conversation that bothers me is I don't see these questions being answered .

From DIGOWELI's introduction posted in the welcome section ;

Harrell is the Traditional Cherokee Priest (Didahnvwisgi) in the Nuyagi Keetoowah Community, (.. )Harrell has been with the community since its founding and was the legally adopted son of the Founder and High Medicine Priest until his death in 1988.  As his last apprentice and son he has served the community as Priest since that time.

reply 24 Wyman Kirk

The particular problem with the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society is threefold: (1) Claims to some link between them and the Oklahoma Keetoowah Society, (2) Claims to "traditional" medicine knowledge, and (3) Claims to "cultural" Cherokee knowledge in terms of religion, beliefs, etc.

Reply 41 Digoweli

Just because someone in the CNO government doesn’t know us doesn’t mean that someone else there doesnt.  

If there is someone in the CNO, who knows this group is real , why not just name who this is , and how to contact them ?  

Reply 45 to Vance from Digoweli , when Vance asks who his Cherokee ancestors were .

OK, if your family is the reason that you are Cherokee then you are only half way there. ( ... ) The first stone is blood but that is only a beginning and sometimes people jump over that stone.  

I have relatives all over Oklahoma and all over the nation both by blood and marriage.   That is by my natural parents.   My adopted Father and last teacher was a Webber and that is not an unknown name down around Gore.   His wife was Ani-Awi York from Tennessee.

May be I missed something , but I can't find where any Cherokee ancestors are identified.

In my opinion , if a person holds a public position of trust in the community, because of some sort of connection to a Native community, the basis of this connection should easily verifiable to the public .  If a person in such a position publicly states they are Cherokee or some other type of "Native" , then they also have a responsibility to explain their relationship and exact name and birth place of who it was in their family who was "Native" .  If someone is not Native by blood , but was adopted and taught by someone who was , and someone holds a public position because of this , I believe there is a responsibility to clearly explain this , and give first and last names , tribe , and name people who know them there , so people have the information they need to verify this .

People with any real connection with Native communities and culture are aware of the problems created by frauds  .

It seems to me , if people are who they say they are , and they are real Spiritual leaders , these people would understand the reason people need to be sure who they are . As a general rule of thumb , I think people need to be really cautious of anyone claiming to be a Native Spiritual leader , who gets defensive or evasive when asked about these things .

There is another aspect to this interaction which also causes me to feel concern  ;  

Reply 34 Digoweli

I called the High School Counselor Dr. Richard Allen and he did not convince me that he was equipped to make the judgements he made.      

Richard Allen reply 48

Contrary to what Mr. Harrell has posted on this site, he sent me an email this morning dated: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 9:12 AM.  About an hour or two later, he called me.  I emphatically state that this is the first contact that I have had with Mr. Harrell by email or by land line.  

Mr. Harrell called to ask whether I had received his email and I responded I had and that "He was still a wannabe" to which he responded that I was  a "sh*thead" and hung up the phone.  That is the extent of any conversation that he and I have ever had.(.. )

I am a policy analyst employed by the Cherokee Nation not a high school counselor as was stated by Mr. Harrell.  

reply 49 Digoweli

I realize that Mr. Allen doesn't remember that he told me his PhD was in education and counseling.  (...) Maybe he has lead damage like those of us from Picher.   The VA has some good drugs for memory and as a Marine he is eligible. I don't really care what his job is at present.  We all do different things. I did call him at his home about six months ago(..)

Reply 60 Digoweli  

Accusing someone of lacking authenticity is to judge their soul.   That is the real curse not saying that someone is a nuts head .

I don't agree with name calling . As a strategy it communicates a lack of self control , empathy , and possibly a lack of awareness  of what the issues actually are . Name calling only lowers the credibility of whoever uses this tactic , and , it does nothing to increase understanding , or cooperation .

Personally , I would not be comfortable to attend a ceremony which was being led by someone , who , when feeling irritated , would make suggestions that in my opinion , seem to be aimed at unfairly undermining a persons character and credibilty . In relationships of equal power this behavior is just rude . In relationships of unequal power this tactic could be devastating .

I don't know anything about Cherokee ways , but Wyman Kirk and Richard Allen do .

There is probably good reasons for wanting to keep these traditions within the balance provided by a Native community . For one thing , in community with deeply rooted traditions there are many people who know enough about their culture , to notice when an individual should not be taken seriously .  

So in this way , being sanctioned by the CNO does matter, and I doubt this lack of support from recognized CNO spokespeople is just CNO has an unfriendly attitude towards their unenrolled cousins in New York .

As I understand it , this website is here to teach people some general guidelines how to recognize frauds . In this discussion ,I see a number of what are usually obvious warning signs . There may be some things I am not understanding in this particular situation, but I am feeling concerned when a long time member of this group , who is Cherokee , seems to be suggesting , these warning signs are something it is OK to disregard , but no public explanation is offered explaining why .  

This becomes even more confusing , if people believe Joseph's opinion , that maybe it doesn't matter , if a group claiming to be Cherokee , ( or some other Native group ) is not sanctioned by the tribe they claim affiliation with .

I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone , but, Jopseph , generally speaking , what exactly are you suggesting people use as a point of reference ? I hope you will clarify this .

I don't like to see people get hurt

[JosephSWM]

Who is Cherokee, who is not? Good question. Politically, the only real Cherokees are those that have their cards to prove it. Cards issued by the government or a government sanctioned Cherokee government. I will not go into a long dissertation on the problems inherent in this.

So leaving aside the government whether the US, or the CNO, or the UKB, or the eastern band,  we still have the question, who is a Cherokee. Each of us must answer that for his or herself.

As I have stated, I have had experience for many years with David Michael Wolfe and his cohorts. Before I could condemn Ray and everyone else in New York I had to have 'real time', first hand, in the flesh, experience. Not from what two 'officially sanctioned' Cherokees have said. I do not mean to critisize them, its just that we all must be careful when doing research who we claim as authorities. Will Dr. Allen have his job if Cheif Smith loses the next election? Will he still be an authority to quote.

As I stated before, if anyone has any questions, please email me.

Joseph

[TrishaRoseJacobs]

Just some thoughts,

The standard on this board for being allowed to give one's opinion has never been, do you have a federal card. Nor do I think that just because someone has a federal card, that makes them right in all aspects of the culture.

And, personally, I don't think any Cherokee group should have to claim authority or acquaintence with a federally recognized one as the only way to claim legitimacy.

If they haven't obviously lied, (claiming, for example that their NY group is in a traditional Cherokee territory, like a couple of groups in California have, for example) obviously claimed something false (selling tipis and plains sweats as traditional to Cherokee, again as some have) then why are we worried? We've got a respected member on the board who has personally checked them out, and from what I've seen he knows what he's talking about and has nothing to gain, either monetarily or through ego by lying about it.

just my two cents

[educatedindian]

Some of this I already said to Joseph in an IM. Naturally I defer to our Cherokee members in the end. But plenty of things about Harrell concern me. His ignorance of some of the most basic Cherokee history, such as claiming Boudinot was founding a town in New England when he'd already been executed. His complete lack of maturity and inability to say two sentences without insulting someone made him seem very unlikely to have ever been entrusted with teachings about ceremonies. And not the least, his constantly dodging the question of whether he was Cherokee or not.

The opinion of the CNO does count for quite a lot. Dr Allen's opinion counts for quite a lot, and still would whether he ever worked for the CNO or not. I'd hate to see us start dismissing what rez govts have to say. Too many of the wannabes do that as though it supposedly makes them more pure.

Still, Harrell is still listed under Research Needed for a reason. At worst he's either misguided, or has some knowledge but still does some wrongs things. At best he knows his ceremony but is a complete jerk to people.

[TrishaRoseJacobs]

I aint saying Harrel isn't off, nor am I saying that Dr. Allen (I do have respect for his opinion) should be dismissed out of hand - but what I am saying is that non-recognized groups can still be legitimate even if the federal ones haven't heard of them/don't know about them/don't approve of them. That's all.

[educatedindian]

Off topic replies have been moved to [link=http://www.newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1156923827]This Thread[/link]

[lostcherokee]

where did all the post go
 i know some where moved  but several are missing is there 3 threads of this now or did several post get deleted

[wolfhawaii]

Some of this I already said to Joseph in an IM. Naturally I defer to our Cherokee members in the end. But plenty of things about Harrell concern me. His ignorance of some of the most basic Cherokee history, such as claiming Boudinot was founding a town in New England when he'd already been executed.

I see that this thread was recently inquired about.....just in the interest of historical clarity on this one point, i beleive the reference to Boudinot was actually regarding the original Elias Boudinot, the white benefactor of Gallegina Oowatie who attended school in the east and took his name in honor of him.

[wolfhawaii]

My post above is not edited properly; Al's comment was above, and my comment is below the first 2 sentences. I'm not very computer savvy, sorry.

[Moma_porcupine]

I did some research on some of what REH mentioned about his family a while back. I have been refraining from posting it as I'm not sure his family background is relevent to this discussion.

But I get tired of hearing people repeatedly trying to brush off the opinion of Wyman Kirk and Richard Allen of the CNO , and I am feeling a need to point out the fallacy of these agruments.

This has come up in another thread on Sam Beeler who seems to be using the Nuyagi Keetoowah to validate his own ideas about the history and culture of the Sand Hill's band . A supporter of Beeler's  dismisses the opinions of the CNO on the Nuyagi keetoowah and the problems i see in using this group as a part of the cultural history of another group wanting to claim legitimacy . These opinions which are critical of the Nuyagi Keetoowah are being discredited by saying the people in the CNO who don't support the Nuyagi Keetoowah are irrelevent because they are "Christians"

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2215.15
 
Here is another example of the kind of statements I am reffering to

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=157.45
Reply #49
DIGOWELI
( REH )

Both Allen and Kirk felt no shame at maligning not only a young organization like ourselves, in existence since the 1978 law made it legal, but an old community resource of Cherokees and Lenape  (the Sand Hill People) that Touching Leaves the great Lenape Linguist scholar paid homage to when she came to New York before she died.    The community historian, who happens to be a member of the CNO,  has carefully documented the history of the community and been peer reviewed and is exhibited in two Museums in New Jersey as a cultural resource.   The community is dispersed with only a few residents now but to deny their existence is criminal.   Where is your head Allen and Kirk.

What tunes are you singing?

Ultimately It all comes down to government collaborator's descendants being recognized and Oklahoma traditionals being dis-enfranchised.   Ask him why they don't include the traditional Keetoowahs who refused and still refuse numbers in the nation? 

So if the CNO members who don't support the Nuyagi Keetoowah are all Christians and governement collaborators, lets check out what kind of traditional Cherokee people REH feels are getting disenfranchized ....
 
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=978.0

« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2006, 05:21:25 PM »
REH who was posting as Sam Nodoc

"If you check the Watie regiment in Starr you can find four different families of his relatives.   Reynolds, Webbers, Smiths and a Harrell was the Chaplin of the regiment. (The Harrell Institute in Muskogee was one of the first Cherokee schools .... )"

OK so REH says this Chaplin was a relative.

Below is a website that allows you to search for any soldier who fought in the civil war .

http://www.civilwar.nps.gov/cwss/soldiers.cfm

There was a Chaplin named Harrell who served in Stand Waties regiment.

John Harrell (First_Last)
Regiment Name General and Staff Officers, Corps, Division and Brigade Staffs, Non-com. Staffs and Bands, Enlisted Men,
Staff Departments, C.S.A.
Side Confederate
Company
Soldier's Rank_In Chaplain
Soldier's Rank_Out
Alternate Name
Notes
Film Number M818 roll 11

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/Chronicles/v004/v004p116.html

The first Presiding Elder of the District in which Chickasaw Academy was located was
Reverend John Harrell.1 Reverend Harrell was formally transferred to the Indian Mission
Conference in 1850, where he continued to labor until the end of his life. After serving
four years as Superintendent of Ft. Coffee Academy he was made Presiding Elder of the
District in which Chickasaw Academy was located and from that time on he was either
Presiding Elder or Mission Superintendent (except during the War in which he served as
Chaplain, first of Gordon’s Regiment of Arkansas Volunteers and afterward in a similar
 capacity with the brigades of General W. L. Cabell and General Stand Watie), until the
appointment which was made shortly before his death, which was that of Superintendent of
the Asbury Manual Labor School at Eufaula, with a monthly preaching appointment at Vinita.
His death occurred December 8, 1876, at Vinita, where he had gone to fill an appointment,
so he literally died in the harness. It is said that Reverend Harrell was a man of magnetic
personality and of  imposing physical presence. He was always humble and unassuming, yet
possessed of a courage that was daunted at nothing, added to this was an undying love for
his work and was therefore a splendid type of all that was best in the frontier Mission
worker. His remains were laid beside those of his wife who died but a few weeks before at
the Asbury Manual Labor School.

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/chronicles/v011/v011p0739.html

The above link contains an excellent photograph of Rev John Harrell .

 

Born in Perquimmans County, North Carolina, October 21, 1806, and died on December 6,
1876, at the age of seventy years, one month, and seventeen days. Licensed to preach in
1823, when but seventeen years of age, ( con...)

(... ) volunteers were transferred to the Missouri Conference, which at that time
included the Territory of Arkansas and missions among the western Indians, John Harrell being

Page 744

appointed to Washington & Cherokee Mission, with A. M. Scott as assistant, said Mission being located in the northwest part of Arkansas Territory.

Here commenced the mission work which he continued as long as he lived. In 1836 when the Arkansas Conference was organized, on account of location, of his then work, he remained in the Arkansas Conference until 1850, when he was transferred to the Indian Mission Conference which had been organized in 1844. He filled different positions of circuit and station preacher and presiding elder. When transferred by Bishop Paine to the Indian Mission Conference he was placed in charge of Fort Coffee School, where he remained for four successive years as superintendent. For the year 1854-5 he was presiding elder of the Choctaw District and for seven years (1855-62) of the Cherokee District. For three years (1862-5) he was Superintendent of Army Missions. For 1865-6 he was Presiding Elder of Cherokee District. For three years (1866-69) he filled the appointment of Superintendent of
Missions of Indian Mission conference, traveling from one district to another and from one part of the Western territory in which the Plains Indians were located to other parts, using all of his powers to  sustain, arouse and revive the then drooping spirits of the Church in the Indian country.

"He was married in Washington County, Arkansas, in 1832, to Miss Eliza Williams, who died on November 20, 1876, preceding him to the grave about a month. Nine children were born to them, seven of whom preceded him in death. Two daughters and two grand-children survived him."

I don't know if Rev John Harrell was a direct ancestor of REH, but as he is surnamed Harrell, is said to be a relative , and came to Arkansas and OK from NC , this seems likely .
 
REHl also posted some family information in reply to William Greywolf's introduction;

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=202.msg917#msg917

« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2005, 03:49:53 PM »

My greatgrandfather was in his mother's belly in 1838 when the army came to the door.   His father and 9 children escaped with his mother to Mississippi where they were taken in and given new names by an MD named Herndon Ray in Yallobusha County.  Both my father and I carry his name as an honor for what he did for our family. 

My greatgrandfather was born in Dr. Ray's house and grew up with him as Charles Jasper Reynolds.  When the Civil War came along Charles went to Arkansas to join the Cherokee regiment but that began the first conflict with the Cherokees of Oklahoma .   No problem, he joined an Arkansas regiment and fought with Watie and the others.   He was wounded and returned home but liked the Cherokees around Harrison Arkansas and moved there with his new wife.    At the time of the Dawes Rolls he had no inclination to support any connection  to the US government or to the faction in Oklahoma that did.   He stayed put and eventually my Grandmother and her husband and children moved to Oklahoma to live amongst the Creeks.  My great uncle went with the Choctaw and was adopted by the then current Choctaw Chief because of his service to the people.   Wherever my family has been they have worked with our people and kept their own council.   Many of the family are not in support of me doing things like talking on this list but I believe the time has come for us to be in and take our place in the world as who we are.

Ray Evans Harrell

So first I checked out the story that Mr Harrell's Greatgrandfather Charles Jasper Reynolds fought with Watie and others .

http://www.civilwar.nps.gov/cwss/soldiers.cfm

I did a search on the name Watie and this is what comes up ;

Soldier Names
Displaying records 1 to 6 of 6

1 Watie, Charles ,Confederate , 1st Regiment, Cherokee Mounted Volunteers, CSA

2 Watie, Cherles E. ,Confederate , 1st Regiment, Cherokee Mounted Volunteers, CSA

3Watie, Saladin ,Confederate ,1st Regiment, Cherokee Mounted Volunteers, CSA

4Watie, Stand ,Confederate , 1st Regiment, Cherokee Mounted Volunteers, CSA

5Watie, Stand ,Confederate ,General and Staff Officers, Non-Regimental Enlisted Men, CSA

6 Watie,Union ,Infantry ,3rd Regiment, Indian Home Guards, Kansas Infantry

This website allows you to click on the regiment information  , which is also a link , and
from there you can choose either the whole list of soldiers in that regiment , or you can do
a search for a particular name in that regiment . I went through the whole list in case
there was an alternative spelling I had not thought of , and I did a search on the name Reynolds and Renolds .  There is a George Renolds , but no Charles Renolds / Reynolds.listed in any of these regiments


I did find a Charles J Reynolds, But as far as i can tell he was not in the same regiment as the Waties and this looks to be a regular non Cherokee Arkansas regiment ; 

Charles J. Reynolds (
Regiment Name 2 Mounted Rifles, Arkansas
Side Confederate
Company C
Soldier's Rank_In Private
Soldier's Rank_Out Private
Alternate Name
Notes
Film Number M376 roll 19

REH was also posting as Sam Nodoc . What is written in the thread below is in the third person but in reply #5  he admits he is REH

In this thread REH provides some more information about his family background. ( all the quotes below labled reply #1 REH are quoted from this thread linked to below )

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=978.0
Reply #1
REH

takes his name (he’s a Jr.) and his reputation very seriously

This would mean REH inherited his Dad's name .

REH mentions he doesn't want to name those who have passed on and out of respect for this i won't name his father. Instead I will post links and edited quotes from material which mentions someone with the same name as REH , who matches the description REH has given of his dad.

Reply #1
REH

His biological father is still held in high regard in Ottawa County and Bartlesville and his passing received an article in the Tulsa World Newspaper.   The article noted the advances he had achieved in the school system at Picher in spite of the lead pollution.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=57272&archive=yes

[named edited], 78, retired teacher and counselor,
died Tuesday. Services 10:30 a.m. Friday, First Baptist
Church.

There is a website with lots of pictures of the Picher High school , some of which include REH and his Dad

http://www.picheroklahomagenealogy.com/1953.html
pretty good picture of "Mr Harrell" coach of girls basket ball

http://www.picheroklahomagenealogy.com/1958.html
Picture of R. Harrell . Probably Rays Dad . I think he is the man seated in the 4 H club picture , as the writting says there as 5 "officers " and 5 people seated at the front .

http://www.picheroklahomagenealogy.com/1954---.html

http://www.picheroklahomagenealogy.com/tp.gif

Some pictures showing a young "Harrell" or R Harrell in band .

http://www.picheroklahomagenealogy.com/1957.html

http://www.picheroklahomagenealogy.com/1959.html

R. Harrell in Marching band ( (can't see much )

And below I found what looks like an old notice which gives the impression it was produced in by the Picher High Schoo. This notice advertises Ray Evans HarrelI as Cherokee.

http://www.picheroklahomagenealogy.com/FamousPeople-.html

Ray Evans Harrell
Ray came from a family of professional and amateur musicions. His paternal Grand Mother was offered a scholorship in piano to  New York Conservatory in Piano. She elected to raise seven children in the dust bowl of Oklahoma. (con..)

However on closer examination I doubt this notice was produced by the Picher High school. .

First off , Ray graduated in 1959 or 1960. This announcment lists his accomplishments of Piano Conducting Voice Enssemble Poetry Inprovisation teaching

I doubt Ray was doing all that when he graduated from Picher.

The next clue is this announcement lists Barbara McAlister European Opera Muskogee
 
http://www.barbaramcalister.com/resume.htm

Ms. McAlister’s international career began when she won the prestigious Loren Zachary Competition in Los Angeles. This led to engagements as Santuzza, Azucena, Carmen, Eboli, Ortrud and Ulrica in the opera houses of Passau, Koblenz, Bremerhaven, and Flensburg where she was engaged for 10 years. She also appeared as guest artist at Lübeck and Bielefeld Stadtththeatres.

http://www.zacharysociety.org/finalists.htm

 

Barbara McAlister Mezzo-Contralto 1974
Barbara McAlister Mezzo-Contralto 1975

http://www.zacharysociety.org/index.htm

The Loren L. Zachary Society
37th Annual Grand Finals Concert
Sunday, May 31, 2009

The Zachary Society for the Performing Arts was founded by the late Dr. Loren L. Zachary and Nedra Zachary in 1972. In every year since its founding the Society has held a Vocal
Competition for young opera singers.

So if that promotional announcement about Ray Evans Harrell was created by Picher High school, it must have been created after 1974 , at least 14 years after Ray Evans Harrell graduated.

I may be wrong, but I'm not under the impression Picher High school was actually a part of the Quapaw Nation or that it would reffer to itself this way - ( I haven't run across this anywhere else ) So I am thinking this notice was probably not created by Picher High school but by someone else who was interested in presenting this school as Indian , many years after REH graduated...

Here is another member of REH's family who he mentioned...

Reply #1

His father got his Master’s Degree from OU in History where he and his brother C. Clay  [edit] His uncle C. Clay is still, at 90+. doing great things in Muskogee.   One can just ask around about that.   His stepson is the Senator from Oklahoma.   

http://www.cityofmuskogee.com/shell.asp?pg=148

C. Clay Harrell Arboretum
The C. Clay Harrell Arboretum, dedicated on June 20, 1992 is named in honor of C. Clay Harrell, Muskogee’s former City Manager, founder of “A More Beautiful Muskogee” and tireless advocate for community beatification

http://www.muskogeephoenix.com/local/local_story_110005905.html/resources_printstory.

Is there an Okie from Muskogee who you admire?
“Muskogee is full of people that I admire. One that stands out in my mind is Clay Harrell. He is the founder of A More Beautiful Muskogee, Inc., which is an organization that has only one purpose — to make Muskogee a more appealing and more enjoyable place to live and visit. I have seen him out planting trees, painting houses, hauling trash — and getting the rest of us to help him. Clay is 95 years old now and he has slowed down a bit, but he still attends the meetings and knows what needs doing and gives good advice on getting it done.

REH did claim his Dad was Cherokee...  Here is one example of many that specifically say this.

Reply #1
REH
 

As for Cherokee?  He is by faith Keetoowah.   His father was Tsalagi and his mother had Indian blood but long denied.   Probably Chickasaw since her family had a long history around Ponotac County......

All of REH's family seem to be really nice people who have done a lot for their community. There is branches of REH's family REH hasn't mentioned which i haven't researched, so though I haven't seen any evidence of it, these people may have some Cherokee heritage back there. But what I don't see is anything that fits with the repeated suggestions these people were traditional Cherokee people who became alienated from the CNO because they could not collaberate with the Church and government.

Because of this , it seems really dishonest and disrespectful to accuse people who ARE selected as spokes people by the CNO of being irrelevent because they are Church and government collaberators .

In yet , this argument is repeatedly used to diminish the right of Cherokee people to define their own identity and culture and maintain and protect this as they see fit.

And then these people of distant descent who are often nothing more than wannabes get together and support each others lies and misrepresentations. 

Reply #1
REH

He hopes that Nuyagi can present another option that is more positive for all.   That is why they had a Chief’s conference of non-aligned Cherokee Chiefs last summer doing the Tribal Issues Management System of Interactive Management for the purpose of exploring what it would take to achieve Reconciliation between all Tsalagi peoples everywhere.    They are raising money for an environmental conference this summer between native and non-native naturalists to deal with the problems of the animals in Sullivan County where the influx of humans is extreme on a wild population.   They will again use the native TIMS process to examine the issue.   A workshop for 2008 is planned with Dr. Jane Ely that will host a conversation between native healers from around the country.

Not meaning to be negative but just truthful,  I suspect you are not aware of how many non-aligned (NA) Tsalagi do not like the CNO especially and as the Eastern Band becomes more political they are being included.    These NAs  are also unhappy with the current politics of the grounds and the UKB.    They chose from 1880 to 1914 to refuse to enroll because they believed it meant the end of the Cherokee as a people and world Nation.   

In fact they insist that those who did enroll on the Dawes Rolls early on, were either Collaborators, Prisoners (like Redbird Smith who was incarcerated at the time) Whitemen who wanted land and were the fathers of the “Sooners???  or were simply Cherokee Christians who believed spiritually that the old Nation was dead and heathen.   

I'm not sure if REH's family background is directly related to his role of High Medicine Priest of the Nuyagi Keetoowah , as this seems to have been passed on to him through being adopted by the person who previously held this title within the Nuyagi Keetowah. So in this sense REH's family isn't really relevent to the position he claims.

I am posting this more as an example of why it so often seems so disrespectful when people who are in fact at most PODIAs descended primarily from colonists,  dismiss the authority of the CNO as nothing more than an opinion coming from Church and government collaberators.

[shkaakwus]

Thanks for bumping this thread!  I especially enjoyed reading posts #60, #87, #90 & #92.

[Moma_porcupine]

We all choose who to listen to.

I guess i should add this too ... It is from several years ago so maybe stuff like this is no longer going on ...

http://web.archive.org/web/20030802172553/http://www.auburnsem.org/edprog/ce0102/04_aspiritual.shtml

You will be welcomed by the Council of the Nuyagi Kee-too-wah Society and its medicine priest, Ray Evans Harrell.They have prepared a wonderful day of ceremonies, ritual, dance, and song to take place on the Auburn campus at Broadway and 121st Street.Leader for the day: Ray Evans Harrell, medicine priest, Nuyagi Kee-too-wah Society.

The entire series is planned and jointly sponsored by Auburn Seminary, the Temple of Understanding, the Psychotherapy & Spirituality Institute in New York City, and the Long Island Multi-Faith Forum.

Places will be reserved in the order that registrations (with payment of program fee) are received.

Program fee: $450for orientation session and series of eight; $65 per individual session

This was only one of eight sessions so it's not like the Nuyagi Keetowah were ever getting the full $450

[shkaakwus]

What?  All this shows is that Harrell participated in a multi-faith conference on eight different world religious paths.  I have no problem with it.