Ayahuasca Tourism, Ethics Questions, Ross Heaven

[frederica]

Ross,

If you want to start another thread on Ayahuasca, you are free to start one.  But, it will eventually lead to the discussion of Ayahuasca tourism, tours, entrepreneurship and people that dabble in other people cultures (medicine) and/or religion.  Even though this may not be for profit, there are still secondary gains that people have.  I don't think "enlightment" or experimentation is enough to justify the use or to encourage the use. Now, that's just my opinion.                                                                                                                                                                                                       

There is already information about Ayahuasca on the forum, as it has been discussed.   

[Moma_porcupine]

There is another thread on Ayahuasca in the link below

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1524.0

What I am posting here doesn't have much to do with ayahuasca tourism....

Ross , some of your responses here made me curious and i did some digging. I turned up some interesting
stuff.

First , as i pointed out in that PM you mentioned  , I found it a little surprising that you would defend the content of an email you say was a forgery done in your name , and that you would go on to say you agreed with it's content so much you might copy and paste it as a response to similar complaints .   

I was thinking to leave your personal quirks off of the public message board but as you mention my PM ....
I began typing something in response and the more I put this together and dug - well the more interesting stuff I found.

from Tepol's first post in this thread

Here are some of the love/ly words that this master of love likes to use when challanged about his authencticity.

Note Mr Heaven likes to promote books to overcome fear ,such as one below, while clearly using it as an excuse to overcome his own ultimate fear i.e. money.

Below you can see some links to his many accomplishments , and after that below the line , his response to my original email.

This is the only thing Tepol posted about you, and in this he makes 2 allegations

1. That you wrote an email which made frequent use of the F word

and

2. Tepol believes you have a fear of not having enough money

and Tepol also implies he doesn't like you

These both seem like frivolous complaints , and 2 people immediately began asking Tepol questions about who they were and asking to see what that alleged email was in response to.   

Nothing else was said about you that was in any way negative. Then you come on here and explain that you did not write that email and Tepol has been spreading strange stories about on various message boards .

Reply #4
Ross

Tepol (if that's what he's now calling himself) has been posting the same alleged email from me ad nauseum on various sites for a few years now and has even decided to create a blog site for himself at http://no2.vox.com/library/post/ross-heaven---the-fake-shaman.html where, as you'll see, he pretends to be me and posts and answers emails in my name, presumably from a fake email account he has also created in my name.

His blog however offers no evidence for any of his claims or any true critique of my work

I would think you would appreciate a chance to say your side of this, as presumably you don't have this opprotunity in other places Tepol is placing these allegations.

So I found it a bit odd that you seem so anxious to get anything to do with you removed from " research needed".

But what i find even odder is some of the comments you made defending that email you suggest was a forgery ....

Ross

4. More fundamentally, irrespective of whatever Tepol has written in my name, I can only say again that The Four Gates has no record of any communication from him and so it is most unlikely that I or anyone else would have written such an email to him in response.

Having said that, I'd agree almost 100% with what he writes in the seemingly invented email from me he presents.

It appears to be a response to someone who has written something deliberately offensive and who should therefore expect to be answered in kind. If I am reading it correctly, it also looks as if it is written to someone who expected to get something for nothing in relation to the trips I run for participants to work with the shamans of the Amazon.

Um wait a second... If Tepol just made that email with all the f words up,  how could it be in response to anything ? You mean he wrote an email to himself complaining your services weren't provided for free and then he responded by writting himself an angry email back . if that is what happened I have to agree with you, the person does sound like a nut !

Ross

I can well understand, therefore, why anyone would be infuriated by ignorance on such a grand scale as Tepol's and what appears to be a demand from him or a belief in his own right to get all of this for nothing, including all of the shamans' time and two weeks of healing and ceremonies.

Thats very understanding of you to sympathize with Tepol writting angry emails to himself and then thinking he is you and replying ...

Ross

While I emphasise once more that we have no knowledge of any communication to us from Tepol (by whatever name) and certainly no record of writing the email reply that appears at his fake 'Ross Heaven' blog site from his fake 'Ross Heaven' email address, I might in fact retain his apparently equally fake message because it does, more or less, express my views on the matter and is therefore a cut-and-paste response I might send to anyone who genuinely contacts me expecting something for nothing and who, through this, would cheat genuine shamans and healers out of income for their own gain.

Gee if you like that email that much , I guess your only complaint was that Tepol posted your name in research needed and accused you of being afraid of not having enough money. Ross if you like that email that much , those are pretty frivolous accusations Tepol made. 
Why are you seeming so anxious to get this removed?

And aren't you concerned if you copy and paste that email you say you didn't write to send to other annoying people , wouldn't that be plagerism... I guess not .... LOL

Another thing I am wondering about that seems a bit odd, is you have written a couple books which you claim were intended to teach about some aspects of other cultures 

Reply #8
Ross

I had an interest in vodou since my degree (psychology, anthropology, etc) where we studied it and I was struck by the lack of real information on it and also the fear (or prejudice) surrounding what I took to be a more-or-less 'standard' shamanic practice. Some years later I was invited (for a price of course, which I was happy to pay) to initiate (kanzo) with Racine. I decided to do so out of interest not because of any burning desire to become a priest.

So this person Racine was one of your main sources of information?

Ross

I received several emails at the time from people I had never even met warning me away from Racine and describing her as a fraud and mentally ill but I went ahead anyway, preferring to learn by my own experience and give people the benefit of the doubt (plus there are a lot of 'vodou wars' and competition in the tradition, so who do you really trust until you've had the experience yourself?) Me and my fellow initiates were somewhat suspicious of some of her approaches during the kanzo, it is true, since they seemed non-standard and her 'possession trances' (where she called the spirits in to speak through her) were, frankly, laughable. But then again all traditions (perhaps especially vodou which is very adaptable) do evolve and those within them will also develop their own style of practice, so I was disinclined to make judgements at that time.

That was in 2000

My book Vodou Shaman came out in 2003

So you got involved with someone you were told was a fraud and in your own experience was pretty questionable , and you used your expereinces with this person as part of the basis of a book you wrote which you say was intended to " to get away from the prejudice I'd encountered in my university studies and make vodou accessible and understandable as a shamanic practice to a Western audience. That's all."

Why did you feel it was OK to use information coming from someone you didn't think was entirely legit as a source ?

Ross

and to coincide with it I organised a trip to Haiti for a group of Westerners to experience vodou ceremonies and learn more about its practices. This was not an initiation journey.

During it, however, Racine was very badly behaved and seemed to exhibit qualities of mental illness, just as I'd heard.

I got everyone safely out

So, other people were endangered by being brought into contact with someone who you say was mentally unbalanced...

Racine's reason for allegedly stripping my rank has usually been that I "revealed the secrets of vodou" in my book. However, she has not been able to name a single secret revealed

If Racine stripped you of your rank it sounds like she was your main teacher?

Ross

Is she a fraud? I'd say so, although some of her initiation practices are genuine and the passwords, etc, are recognised by genuine priests and priestesses in Haiti

I guess if they weren't a lot of information in your book would be questionable.... As it stands i guess only some of it would be?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vodou-Shaman-Haitian-Healing-Power/dp/089281134X.

Product Description
Review
"Ross Heaven does for Vodou what Castaneda did for shamanism. With so many sacred ways and cultures dying out, it is wonderful that one of the world's oldest oral traditions is recorded here by an authentic wisdomkeeper."

Apparently I am not the only person to wonder about this...
       

4 of 4 people found the following review helpful:
1.0 out of 5 stars vodou what???, 22 Mar 2008
By    Kalfu (Savannah, Georgia) - See all my reviews
Ross Heaven is surely an interesting character! He has written quite a number of books on shamanism and healing - but Vodou Shaman is definitely not among the greatest! I don't have the expertise to criticise his other works, but there is something about Vodou Shaman that just doesn't click!

Ross Heaven has been initiated by a woman called Mambo Racine a couple of years back. Now he claims she is a fraud, that the initiations she performs are bogus and the knowledge she transmits to other people is not even worth mentioning - and indeed his claims are supported by 99% of the vodou community around the world!

But hey...he still claims to be a valid hougan, fully and truly initiated in Haitian Vodou? This makes no sense at all! If he was initiated by a fraud, then he is not truly initiated! If what his teacher taught him is bogus , then what he passes on as "vodou knowledge" is in turn also bogus! How can he still look at himself in the mirror and claim to be a "vodou hougan" if he knows that what he got in his initiation is not the real deal? Has he ever attempted to fix the situation by actually becoming a valid initiate of a true vodou house? No...he still claims that all is well but that the problem is with his initiator and not with him! All the people who have praised his book so much...are they actually initiated in vodou or are they just glad that someone wrote a book about the topic, no matter how genuine it is?

Am I the only one who raises these questions? Am I the only one who sees one "vodou fraud" accusing another? This is very simple, black or white stuff! Is Ross Heaven a hougan? No! Does he write about vodou with the knowledge of an initiate? No! As simple as that!

http://store.innertraditions.com/isbn/978-0-89281-134-2;jsessionid=358B4F497AF6C8C4599192F171C7F3A8

about Vodou Shaman

Goes beyond the stereotypes to restore Vodou to its proper place as a powerful shamanic tradition

• Provides practical exercises and techniques from the Vodou tradition that can be used as safe and effective means of spiritual healing and personal transformation

• Shows how to remove evil spirits and negative energies sent by others

• Written by a fully initiated Houngan (Vodou shaman)

Providing practical exercises drawn from all aspects and stages of the Vodou tradition, Vodou Shaman shows readers how to contact the spirit world and communicate with the loa (the angel-like inhabitants of the Other World), the ghede (the spirits of the ancestors), and djabs (nature spirits for healing purposes). The author examines soul journeying and warrior-path work in the Vodou tradition and looks at the psychological principles that make them effective. The book also includes exercises to protect the spiritual self by empowering the soul, with techniques of soul retrieval, removing evil spirits and negative energies, overcoming curses, and using the powers of herbs and magical baths.

About the Author(s) of Vodou Shaman
Ross Heaven is a shamanic teacher and Vodou Houngan who spent years as an initiate in this tradition, including spending the requisite time in solitary vigil and performing the other necessary rituals to complete his apprenticeship. He is also the author of The Journey to You and Spirit in the City. He lives in England.

Apparently Ross wrote another book which was co authored by Simon Buxton - who Ross also distanced himself from ...

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=370.0

Reply #5 on: February 25, 2006,
   

An interesting development on this in the form of a review at Amazon, supposedly from Ross Heaven, about a book he has written with (or, by the sound of this, for) Buxton.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594770611/ref=pd_sbs_b_2/104-1300063-4042362?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

From the author, February 24, 2006
Reviewer: Ross Heaven (UK) - See all my reviews
For legal reasons I would like to make clear that I no longer work with or am associated with Simon Buxton, who is listed as my co-author on this book. Nor do I do endorse his work.

Mr Buxton contributed fewer than 15 pages to Darkness Visible (I am including his dedications and the comments he makes about himself on the Resources page within this total, as well as the 5 pages that are taken up with his preface). These pages arrived in the form of scattered paragraphs to be inserted into the already-written text, and not as sustained commentary. Of the 27 exercises in the book, Mr Buxton contributed one, a practice which does not (and, indeed, cannot) take place in darkness. Darkness Visible does not, therefore, contain any substantial work on Mr Buxton's part.

Despite Mr Buxton's marginal involvement in this book, he has, regrettably, decided to run workshops based on its contents. This concerns me greatly as I consider it misleading and unsafe for readers to participate in such events in the belief that Mr Buxton contributed substance to Darkness Visible and its exercises and therefore has experience of teaching these exercises on such courses. He does not.

Darkness Visible, furthermore, contains process-based practices which Mr Buxton did not originate and, once again, has no experience of teaching. He does not have my permission to use these exercises and I do not endorse any practices he has derived from them, for the reasons I have stated.

I encourage readers to apply caution and good sense before committing to any event led by any facilitator who has limited experience in the exercises that are being taught or the work these exercises are derived from. Please put your physical and emotional well-being first in deciding whether such an event is safe and right for you.

Ross Heaven

If this was ever in Amazon it isn't there now

There is a thread on Simon Buxton here

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=530.0

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=304.0

As Ross explains above, it sounds like one of the authors of this book was giving workshops . However, these workshops were not only happening after this book was co-written with Simon, they were happening before , as this book is said to contain excerpts of peoples personal accounts of participating in these workshops,


http://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Visible-Awakening-Spiritual-Meditation/dp/1594770611

The text is based in part on excerpts from various people who have participated in the authors' "Darkness Visible" workshops

.Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

Most Helpful Customer Reviews
     
9 of 12 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars This book is Heaven, March 2, 2007
By    Jennifer E. Fisher - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)   
I have not written many reviews but this book was a wonderful surprise. I borrowed it and have had a hard time giving it back until I get my own copy! I especially like the exercises that allow you to explore and practice on a small scale and see the wisdom gained by this spiritual practice. Highly recommended!

Many pages from this book are available through google books . Reffernces to Simon Buxton as a coworker in leading these workshops and references to Shamnism of various types is mentioned throughout the book

http://books.google.ca/books?id=dWPFNteF4ecC&dq=Darkness+Visible+Ross+heaven&printsec=frontco
ver&source=bn&hl=en&ei=5NTOSZCHOZjItAO1vuWhAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPR14,
M1

I did a search for 'workshop'

from the forward

As gifted story tellers Ross and Simon do a brilliant job of inspiring us to learn more about the power of darkness. The blend cross cultural stories of initiations in darkness from Europe, Africa, India, Japan, Tibet, North America, South America and hati with scintific findings of how darkness affects the brain . I am impressed with how they found a way to bring such a powerful initiation into our modren world. Throughout the book they weave excercises that they have used in their workshops on darkness and stories from the participants about the profound effect this work has had on their lives.

And they don't leave us "in the dark" as we can all try the execises on our own to awaken new states of awareness ......

Page xiv

They know how to set up a safe space for their workshop participants, which allows for this deep exploration into a new way of seeing.

Page 23

Darkness Visible Retreats

For a number of years we have run Darkness Visible retreats and workshops in which the participants live in total blackout for a period of five days or more . Their experiences suggest that darkness is potent as a means of accessing the infinite. just as it always has been and just as cash found it to be .

page 24

Shamans understand that anything seen in the darkness or with eyes closed is a message from the spirit, whatever we concieve this spirit to.   

Page 24

The effects continue to manifest as I write this, weeks after the workshop finished, and I'm sure they will continue to do so. ...

Page 30

In our Darkness Visible retreats, the arrival of the blackout stage is quite evident . A hush descends on the room , which strangely seems to grow darker. The energy in the group changes . The calm of darkness seems contagious; we can actually watch it moving around the room , from person to person , like a sigh on a breath. As Bid ben Bid Bont, a Bee Master in the European initiatory Path of Pollen, has said, "Fruit ripens slowly but falls suddenly."

Page 45

I found my dreams and visions sometimes presaged the shcedualed work . 
For instance, the night before we did work traveling forward in time to meet our future selves [one of the practices undertaken during the workshop], ...

Back cover e

ROSS HEAVEN is a therapist and workshop leader in personal development and healing whose books include Vodou Shaman, Spirit in the City and the journey to you ... Simon Buxton , author of the Shamanic Way of the Bee, is the founder/director of the Sacred trust in England , dedicated to the teaching of practical shaminism for the modren world. Both authors live in England and teach Darkness Visible workshops internationally.

and the general write up from google books

Darkness Visible
 By Ross Heaven, Simon Buxton 

The first book to examine the spiritual and therapeutic practice of retreat in physical darkness to explore inner light

• Shows how experiencing complete darkness over prolonged periods helps in developing mental clarity and creativity

• Draws upon many indigenous and spiritual traditions that use this technique

The use of ceremonial darkness is a classic and cross-cultural method for exploring hidden aspects of unconscious and super-conscious states, accessing invisible landscapes, and embracing the deeper recesses of the self. In Darkness Visible Heaven and Buxton examine the spiritual and therapeutic practice of taking retreat in physical darkness.

For millennia mystics and sages have used darkness as a spiritual tool for breaking with their pasts, prior conditioning, and the limited reality of their societies. Spiritual seekers from many traditions--Celtic, Eastern, indigenous North and South American, Tibetan, and African--have used darkness as a tool for spiritual enlightenment. Heaven and Buxton show how experiencing complete darkness, even for only a period of hours, brings about a remarkable clarity and mental stillness and thus provides a springboard for creativity, intuition, and spiritual development. They include exercises that explore lucid levels of dream consciousness, drawing both from their experience as teachers of this method and from the many cultures that include this practice in their spiritual traditions. Darkness Visible shows how deprivation of sight can truly teach us to see.

More details
Darkness Visible: Awakening Spiritual Light Through Darkness Meditation
By Ross Heaven, Simon Buxton
Published by Inner Traditions / Bear & Company, 2005
ISBN 1594770611, 9781594770616
168 pages

i also found this

http://www.amazon.com/Va-Va-Voodoo-Find-Love-Make-Keep/dp/0738709948/ref=sr_
1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238295667&sr=1-7

Va-Va-Voodoo: Find Love, Make Love & Keep Love (Paperback)
by Kathleen Charlotte (Author), Ross Heaven (Foreword)

Editorial Reviews
Product Description
You've tried blind dates, online mates, tête-à-têtes, and waiting for fate. Maybe it's time to add a little Voodoo power to your quest for red-hot romance or lasting love.

With its emphasis on love and freedom, the passionate spiritual practice of Voodoo has much to offer those seeking romance. In Va-Va-Voodoo, author Kathleen Charlotte provides a unique and potent blend of Voodoo magic (or wanga) and relationship expertise. 

You'll meet a few of Voodoo's most helpful spirits in matters of love and happiness-Erzulie, Ogoun, La Sirène, Baron, and Legba-and learn how to work with their energy to attract a lover, find "the one," keep a relationship steamy, or recover from heartbreak. Along with down-to-earth relationship tips on communication, self-esteem, intimacy, sex, break-ups, and forgiveness, Va-Va-Voodoo includes a colorful array of tried-and-true Voodoo magical wisdom and spells, including:

• Honey pot magic  • Love rituals  • Herbal aphrodisiacs
•  Voodoo dreaming baths  •  Pakets and mojos  •  Love dolls
•  Hoodoo love oils  • Footprint magic  • Crossroads magic   

About the Author
Initiated in the healing arts of Voodoo, Kathleen Charlotte (United Kingdom) is a therapist, healer, and relationship counselor who combines psychology and Voodoo magic to help clients. She is also a co-founder of The Four Gates Foundation, an organization devoted to the teaching and promotion of spiritual wisdom and freedom psychology.

       

By    Ms. Katherine Glover "kathsrealm" - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)   
I wasn't expecting much when I picked up this title. The author is a close friend of Ross Heaven who wrote the abortion that is 'Vodou Shaman' and the cover screams tacky.

I was pleasantly surprised to find a range of magical techniques that would be useful to women (and men!) in a variety of love situations. (con..)

http://www.amazon.com/Journey-You-Shamans-Path-Empowerment/dp/0553813234/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=
books&qid=1238295667&sr=1-9

The Journey to You a Shaman's Path to Empowerment

       

By A Customer
This is an example of a yet another would be "shaman" who thinks that visions obtained from the hallucinogenic tea brewed from Banisteriopsis qualifies them to teach us mortals about medicine work. Nothing could be further from truth.

Ayahuasca is a magnificent plant. The spirit of this plant is a demanding, exacting, tempestuous and awesome teacher. An ayahuasca shaman devotes his life to studying the vine; he/she apprentices for decades to one or several maestros. There are very few legitimate Western mediators of plant teachings and Ross is not one of them - you do not become an ayahuascero through a weekend visit to Peru or Ecuador. In this book we more or less get insights obtained by a sincere and dedicated tourist. If interested in listening to a true ayahuascero, try to obtain the music from Don Jose Campos.

I'm not sure what to think of all this.  Hmmmmm

[Ross]

Well, allow me to say what I think of it all moma_p?

It has nothing at all to do with a discussion of ayahuasca!  :'(

Hence, it sort of, again, proves my point that a new thread is needed which is genuinely about ayahuasca and ethics.

That is what this one purports to be but clearly it is not. It continues to be a place where old, dealt-with and new unrelated material is being dug up about me rather than ayahuasca and so has no relevance whatsoever to the subject of the thread.

I am sure that, as an academic, educatedindian must surely now see the problem and will want to clear things up by creating a new thread.

As for the other points you mention, I replied to your private email where you threatened to "embarrass" me by writing about this material unless I told you what you wanted to know about ayahuasca that I would not make any comments about any of this. The place to discuss vodou is the vodou thread. As far as I am concerned Tepol has already been dealt with and, once again, a moderator has said that we are to pay that poster no mind and I am doing exactly that. And as for book reviews, I can go to Amazon right now and pick off a dozen favourable ones if I wish, but what's the point? Different readers have different opinons.

Now, if you would like my comments on ayahuasca, which is what this thread should be about, well you know what to do.

If not, well I have already told you publicly and privately that I do not feel as if I must answer to you about what I do, and also that I am finding it time-consuming and tedious to continue to go over old ground. So please take this as my final post on this matter - or my final post altogether if you prefer - since I am now offering you a straight choice:

If you want to discuss ayahuasca, please create an appropriate thread and let's do it. Or I am happy to leave you to your own research - about ayahuasca, vodou, me, my relationships or whatever else you find stimulating.

I'll add that I''m delighted and very flattered that you find me fascinating enough to take such an interest in me and to spend what I am sure is your precious time 'researching' me at Amazon and other learned sources but as you'll appreciate, the subject of 'me' is not very interesting to me - since I am me and therefore know myself very well!

Ayahuasca, though, that is a fascinating subject - and one which, despite the title of this thread we still have not got around to, sadly; thanks to posts like these.

Best wishes
Ross

[Moma_porcupine]

As for the other points you mention, I replied to your private email where you threatened to "embarrass" me by writing about this material unless I told you what you wanted to know about ayahuasca that I would not make any comments about any of this. The place to discuss vodou is the vodou thread. As far as I am concerned Tepol has already been dealt with and, once again, a moderator has said that we are to pay that poster no mind and I am doing exactly that. And as for book reviews, I can go to Amazon right now and pick off a dozen favourable ones if I wish, but what's the point? Different readers have different opinons.

Ross , I guess you are free to interpret that PM I sent any way you want ... and as i sent this PM before I did most the research posted last night, but when you were aware what was out there, I suppose this may have seemed more threatening to you at the time than is was intended by me. But as you are publicly accusing me of saying things that are your own interpretation, I guess I should post that PM so people can see for themselves what kind of so called "threats" i made.

The PM I sent was cced to Al and read as follows

being listed in research needed
« Sent to: Ross on: March 27, 2009, 06:57:55 AM »
« Bcc: educatedindian »
   Reply with quoteQuote ReplyReply Remove this messageRemove
You know Ross , you seem like a pretty reasonable person and i respect that, and we all make mistakes and if we can admit it and then we learn and move on , and I REALLY respect that - having made many mistakes myself. However, you have written 2 books which were either written by or based on your work with people who you yourself say are frauds. Now you say you know the difference and can guide others. Maybe this is true, but being listed in research needed doesn't mean you are a fraud, and as someone who has recently worked with people you thought were legit but now turn out to be frauds, I'm not sure I see you as a victim being mentioned in research needed.

To be blunt, you complaining about it , now the title of the thread has been changed and good things have been said about you doesn't improve my opinion of you.

There is also a thread in NAFPS mentioning your working with Simon Buxton

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=370.0

Ross you seem like a responsible and reasonable person but if you have in the past supported frauds, and used them to support your own published work - even after being told they were frauds - I don't see why NAFPS should be expected to cover up some mistakes you have made and i don't see why you feel offended to be listed in research needed when good things have been said about you there.   

I also noticed and thought it was a bit odd that after you said you did not write the email posted by Tepol you felt compelled to defend what was said in this email you say you never wrote.

Reply #4
Ross
Quote

Having said that, I'd agree almost 100% with what he writes in the seemingly invented email from me he presents.

It appears to be a response to someone who has written something deliberately offensive and who should therefore expect to be answered in kind. If I am reading it correctly, it also looks as if it is written to someone who expected to get something for nothing in relation to the trips I run for participants to work with the shamans of the Amazon.

Again, I do not claim to be a "shaman" but I do work with Shipibo healers and others who make this claim. If Tepol (or anyone else) has a problem with their credentials then he is fully entitled to take it up - with them. I am perfectly happy with their abilities and the results that participants get from these healing events (and so are the participants). I have more than 10 years experience of working with rainforest shamans myself and am content that I can recognise a true healer when I see one and protect participants accordingly from those who are not what they present themselves to be

.

It did make me wonder a bit. At the moment I am not bringing this up publicly, as i don't want to embarrass you if I can avoid it,  but I have to tell you privately that  people don't usually defend an email that was forged in their name ...

IMO anybody doing the work you do needs to be researched before people decide to get involved . This message board encourages people to think and ask questions . People who are honest and have nothing to hide have nothing to fear from being researched as it just brings up good things.

 That you yourself have been involved with frauds simply underlines the importance of asking questions.

Not offence intended and i hope we can continue to communicate in a mutually respectful way.

Take care
 

You posted your reply quoted below.

Thank you for your email here moma_porcupine - and for the private email you sent me earlier. I am pleased that you have found one article on ayahuasca which may or may not support your views but as far as my own further contribution here is concerned I can really only repeat the contents of the private reply I also sent you when you mailed me some hours ago - and so wonder why you are posting again here given my earlier response - which was this:


Thank you for your email. I have made the points I wish to make regarding this thread at the forum.

Being involved with this group is taking up a lot more time than I expected, partly because we seem to be going over the same ground a lot, vis: various people, including moderators, being generally positive about my work on all fronts so far discussed (vodou and ayahuasca), yet an unwillingness to simply move on, and so you'll forgive me if I don't want to enter into private discussions as well about the very same issues. It's nothing personal, it's just a question of time.

I see no reason at all to remain in 'research needed' since one moderator himself has already stated that I am NOT a fraud and you yourself have commneted on my genuineness and willing to discuss matters with you, etc. There is an available category for non-frauds and so I don't see what the problem is. In the face of acceptance so far I don't really have the inclination (or the time) to remain part of this thread forever in order, seemingly, to continue justifying my work to people I don't even know and who have in any case already accepted that I am not a fraud.

I am not "complaining about it", I am simply stating a fact and my reasonable perspective on things having been told publicly by a forum moderator that I am not a fraud.

To be equally blunt in turn, I have no interest really in whether my perspective on this improves your opinion of me or not. I don't feel that I have to "answer" to you or anyone else at this forum. I am happy to be (and have been) very open about my work, I have nothing to hide and my conscience is clear about what I do.

I am also very happy to educate the group about ayahuasca and its use based on my experience but that requires a more general thread and a general discussion in mind. If that doesn't happen I don't feel compelled to contribute further just because you would like me to and I'm disinclined to give further time to this as things stand.

Again, I'm not "complaining" but nor am I asking anyone's "permission" to do what I do; I'm simply explaining my work, so I feel no compulsion that I "must" answer all questions addressed to me.

I note your reference to "embarrassing" me but again I have nothing to hide so no reason to be "embarrassed" by anything you say. You can, of course, make any references or cast any shadows you wish without evidence for your opinions and views, but that does not imply any guilt on my part. I wouldn't bother to answer any further questions on 'Tepol' however since as far as I am concerned that matter has been dealt with and again a moderator has expressed the view that we should not pay atention to Tepol. That suits me fine but the fact that his message remains there means that anyone (as per yourself) can continue to go over this ground when the matter has already be dealt with.

Again, while that message (and I myself) remain in Research Needed it looks to me as if 'research' will always be "needed" even when a moderator has himself dismissed it.

That's really all I have to say. If you'd like to create a new thread I'll be happy to discuss ayahuasca with you and others but if not, well what else can I say? I believe I've made a reasonable offer but the rest is up to the group.

Best wishes
Ross


That remains my view and there's no need for secrecy moma_porcupine and no need, given my very clear reply, for you to be posting additional material here that I have told you I am currently unwilling to answer. I've asked you for what I believe is a very simple courtesy: simply start a new thread with a more general focus on the subject of 'ayahuasca tourism' and I'll happily answer your questions. In the absence of that, I really don't understand why you're posting again here when you already have my views on this matter.

Ross

( my bold)

So, on one hand you are suggesting sending you a PM and trying not to embarrass you was "secertive" of me, and everything should be out in the open, but now you are accusing the same PM of being a "threat" to expose you. I'm not sure how you could honestly interpret it to be both....?

I guess we all see things differently

[bls926]

Well, allow me to say what I think of it all moma_p?

It has nothing at all to do with a discussion of ayahuasca!  :'(

Hence, it sort of, again, proves my point that a new thread is needed which is genuinely about ayahuasca and ethics.

That is what this one purports to be but clearly it is not. It continues to be a place where old, dealt-with and new unrelated material is being dug up about me rather than ayahuasca and so has no relevance whatsoever to the subject of the thread.

I am sure that, as an academic, educatedindian must surely now see the problem and will want to clear things up by creating a new thread.

As for the other points you mention, I replied to your private email where you threatened to "embarrass" me by writing about this material unless I told you what you wanted to know about ayahuasca that I would not make any comments about any of this. The place to discuss vodou is the vodou thread. As far as I am concerned Tepol has already been dealt with and, once again, a moderator has said that we are to pay that poster no mind and I am doing exactly that. And as for book reviews, I can go to Amazon right now and pick off a dozen favourable ones if I wish, but what's the point? Different readers have different opinons.

Now, if you would like my comments on ayahuasca, which is what this thread should be about, well you know what to do.

If not, well I have already told you publicly and privately that I do not feel as if I must answer to you about what I do, and also that I am finding it time-consuming and tedious to continue to go over old ground. So please take this as my final post on this matter - or my final post altogether if you prefer - since I am now offering you a straight choice:

If you want to discuss ayahuasca, please create an appropriate thread and let's do it. Or I am happy to leave you to your own research - about ayahuasca, vodou, me, my relationships or whatever else you find stimulating.

I'll add that I''m delighted and very flattered that you find me fascinating enough to take such an interest in me and to spend what I am sure is your precious time 'researching' me at Amazon and other learned sources but as you'll appreciate, the subject of 'me' is not very interesting to me - since I am me and therefore know myself very well!

Ayahuasca, though, that is a fascinating subject - and one which, despite the title of this thread we still have not got around to, sadly; thanks to posts like these.

Best wishes
Ross

I'm thinking this thread needs to be retitled. Maybe it should go back to its original title . . . Ross Heaven - The Love Guru ? Not sure about the 'love guru' part. I'm not feeling the love in Heaven's last few posts.

Thanks for the additional research, Moma. Guess there was more Research Needed. This is what I was talking about, when threads are moved to Non-Frauds before adequate research has been done.

As I said yesterday:

If y'all want another thread to discuss the appropriation and use of ayahuasca . . . start another thread.

Although, in hindsight, I really don't see the need for another thread. Ayauasca has been discussed here before and I think the general consensus is that it is not ours to appropriate. This medicine belongs to the people of South America, not the world.

Looks like any discussion of Ross Heaven is going to encompass more than ayahuasca; it needs to include Voodoo, Darkness, and all the other things Heaven has dabbled in.

[Ross]

OK, no problemo. I'll leave you to it then.

I did come to this forum open to suggestions and willing to learn from anyone who had anything positive and constructive to say so that I might be able to improve the trips I run to Peru for all concerned - the shamans, the centres, and the participants - and I'd like to thank educatedindian for the one good suggestion that has arisen in all these various posts. I'd like to have heard more positive suggestions like that from you and I've made the change to the information document I provide to participants which your idea did bring up.

I'd also like to apologise to those who have expressed a genuine interest in discussing ayahuasca but, as I think you can see, this thread is really going nowhere so it seems pointless to pursue it here. If anyone would like more information on the subject, however, please feel free to email me privately and there may be articles I can send you or questions I can answer, which I'm happy to do in a more constructive and less confused space.

As for the group as a whole, I think you have a great opportunity, based on the wisdom and experience of the more intelligent people here, to really develop the forum, as I said before, not just as a bed of critics who believe they should be "answered to" and which thinks it can identify "frauds" from a distance by recycling age-old material and hearsay, into one which is constructive and positive and adds something of value to the world by acting in an advisory capacity to help develop 'best practice' and serve the cause of evolution. I hope that, as a whole, you choose that path one day as I believe it could be useful and I have seen that there are some people here of good heart who are willing to learn - and to teach - and to attempt to build bridges through understanding.

For those people - and for those who would prefer a narrower and more negative focus (perhaps more especially for the latter) - I wish you all great fortune, success, and joy in your lives. Enjoy your 'research'! 

My very best wishes
Ross

[bls926]

NAFPS has been discussing ayahuasca and those that promote its use for several years. Here are a few of the links I found when I did a search:


Howard Lawler  (2005/2008)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=145.0


Leo Rutherford  (2005)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=246.0


Pablo Russell  (2006)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=574.0


SpiritPathPeru.com  (2006/2007)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=990.0


What do you know about Don Pedro Guerra Gonzales?  (2007)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1050.0


Ayahuasca  (2008)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1524.0


Aurora Baha AKA Francis de la Maza AKA Wolf Seven Thunders  (2008)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1597.0


Cross cultural CATCH-22  (2008)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1512.0


Plastic Shaman On All Deaf  (2008)
http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1876.0

[educatedindian]

Despite Ross's melodramatic claim, the only "threat" on this thread came from him, though I stress it's not a threat of doing harm to anyone. Basically, him demanding "Do what I want or I won't talk to you."

Even before Moma P's last post, I was pretty convinced there was no way to disentangle the thread into two topics. So many posts overlapped, and Ross was offering his opinion (and being asked about it) using his own operation as an example repeatedly.

Ross, since I believe you are likely continuing to read the topic, even if you now are in a fit and refuse to talk, there's a couple final points to you, even as this thread will continue to discuss and have research done:

You make too much about me saying I didn't consider you a fraud, as did the sockpuppets who came in to spam and disrupt. My opinion is never the final word on anything in here. I'm only one mod of five, and one poster of hundreds. NAFPS has always been a collective cooperative forum.

I also found it strange you'd want any mention of Tepol's smear of you deleted, since anyone looking at the thread will see there's not anything to what s/he said.

On another note, squid/RDR never explained their multiple sockpuppet IDs. The mods had given "them" the benefit of the doubt. (They're not even banned from the forum, just from posting unless they IM a mod with a valid explanation.) But when "they" started to answer each other, we could see their purpose was to create an impression of multiple people calling for removal of anything critical about Ross. More and more it looked like "they" were one of Ross's supporters incensed that anyone even dare question what he does.

I repeat what I said earlier: I would not put Heaven in the same category as a fraud like Lynn Andrews, etc, but I have concerns and questions about what he does. Even if Moma P had not found additional things that are worrisome, the whole question of ethics surrounding ayahuasca/drub tourism remain.

Yes, ayahuasca is a drug, just as peyote is. What can make them both sacraments are how people of the faith use them, and plenty of casual users take these drugs into their bodies in the wrong way, no different than dropping acid or eating 'shrooms.

Thread retitled again.

[tepol]

With respect i agree with Barnaby,tell us Tepol,do you still have this "original e mail" you sent Ross Heaven
which warranted such an eliquent (not) outburst and can we see it please so we all get a rounded view of
your problem with this individual?.

Hello - Sorry for my delay in responding .

I may still have the original in my mailbox, but even if I did it would still require fullproof evidence and a probable  lengthy court proceedure / cost on my part to trace the location of the IP address he used at the time. ( provided it was at his headquaters or home and not some cyber cafe for example )

Ross himself has history of semmingly " pissing off " peers he has been associated with , which in itself should tell you something .

You can see for yourself where Ross ( now Kate ) bemoans my original post on my blog by trying to defend his would be benefactor ( who of course is himself )

http://www.spiritgarden.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1450&sid=668648e1893e8b5adc0384736a76768e&start=30

hope this helps

tepol

[tepol]

" I repeat what I said earlier: I would not put Heaven in the same category as a fraud like Lynn Andrews, etc, but I have concerns and questions about what he does. Even if Moma P had not found additional things that are worrisome, the whole question of ethics surrounding ayahuasca/drub tourism remain. "

greetings,
I thought id update this thread ( please note Ross is - or was also married man )

Though these pictures mostly appear old, from my humble perspective it does little to enhance overall shamanic community when seen in this perspective as little more than a " swingers club " for one would-be shaman, namely Ross.

You can see for yourself what I mean on his facebook (  http://www.facebook.com/ross.heaven?sk=photos  ) profile pics / gallery .

I make no judgements , but its hard for me to see how this perception of himself conveys any sense of knowledge about anything other than flirting with women.

tepol

[nemesis]

tepol

It seems to me that you are considering the photos of Mr Heaven's facebook page from the position of a person more acquainted with the traditional and conservative values of tribal people, the lives and values of whom have nothing to do with the values and lifestyles chosen by people like Mr Heaven.

IME the people who declare themselves to be "shamans" via their websites and FB pages typically embrace newage lifestyles and values that include polyamory, "tantra" and a mix and blend of  taoism, santeria, neo-paganism, conspiracy theories, crystals and whatever else they fancy. 

While it is interesting to notice the discrepancy between the values and lifestyles of real shamans and medicine people and newagers, the newagers will never really take much notice of your concerns and are likely to dismiss them as you being overly conservative and / or a prude.

People like Heaven are surrounded by adoring groupies and sycophants who bolster their guru's ego and consolidate their shared delusion of spirchuality with endless sex, drugs, rituals and crystal waving. 

Sadly the voices of native people and those who are concerned about cultural appropriation are not heard by those who are too busy partying (and bringing in the $$$) to listen to a message that they don't really want to hear. 

Just my 2p worth

[tepol]

tepol

It seems to me that you are considering the photos of Mr Heaven's facebook page from the position of a person more acquainted with the traditional and conservative values of tribal people, the lives and values of whom have nothing to do with the values and lifestyles chosen by people like Mr Heaven.

IME the people who declare themselves to be "shamans" via their websites and FB pages typically embrace newage lifestyles and values that include polyamory, "tantra" and a mix and blend of  taoism, santeria, neo-paganism, conspiracy theories, crystals and whatever else they fancy. 

While it is interesting to notice the discrepancy between the values and lifestyles of real shamans and medicine people and newagers, the newagers will never really take much notice of your concerns and are likely to dismiss them as you being overly conservative and / or a prude.

People like Heaven are surrounded by adoring groupies and sycophants who bolster their guru's ego and consolidate their shared delusion of spirchuality with endless sex, drugs, rituals and crystal waving. 

Sadly the voices of native people and those who are concerned about cultural appropriation are not heard by those who are too busy partying (and bringing in the $$$) to listen to a message that they don't really want to hear. 

Just my 2p worth

I think your right , and Im quite sure Ross is aware of this himelf, which is probably explains why hes decided to reveal all these photos now in their glory rather than concealing them as he did.

However, I would not put Ross in the class of guru or being able to manipulate the energy of those around him to the degrees other true gurus could , though I suppose with some it takes little beyond the type of flattery you could just as easily find in any bar or pub, who doesn't like to hear their special ?

tepol

[Pono Aloha]

"I did come to this forum open to suggestions and willing to learn from anyone who had anything positive and constructive to say so that I might be able to improve the trips I run to Peru for all concerned"

To me this sounds very self serving. I also find this to be arrogant:

"As for the group as a whole, I think you have a great opportunity, based on the wisdom and experience of the more intelligent people here, to really develop the forum, as I said before, not just as a bed of critics who believe they should be "answered to" and which thinks it can identify "frauds" from a distance by recycling age-old material and hearsay, into one which is constructive and positive and adds something of value to the world by acting in an advisory capacity to help develop 'best practice' and serve the cause of evolution."

Why should native people serve in an advisory capacity to people misrepresenting native traditions? So that Ross and others can then trot out, again and again as he has done here, that one or some native people think he is not a fraud, or have advised him? No, the purpose of this forum is point out frauds from a distance. If the world of plastic shamans does not then evolve, oh well.