Sam Beeler

[shkaakwus]

Moma_Porcupine writes:
 
"I don't know whats going on with anyone else , but the reason i haven't been responding to this isn't because i don't care , but more that i don't understand why it's so important whether or not people in an internet forum think Sam Beeler is or isn't an American Indian."
 
So, it's not important to know whether or not somebody who presents himself as an American Indian is, in fact, an American Indian?  It is to me.


"Personally I am guessing he probably has enough descent to be accepted as an NDN by quite a few other folks who are indisputably NDN themselves ( as in people who are enrolled in a federally recognized tribe)"
 
"Guessing" isn't good enough for me.  And, "folks who are indisputably NDN" does NOT = "people who are enrolled in a federally recognized tribe."  There are a multitude of non-Indians enrolled in some federally recognized tribes; and many Indians who are not enrolled.


"But so what ?"
 
See above.


"The question of whether or not the Sand Hills band should rightfully be recognized as a soveirgn indigenous Nation is a whole different issue , and I don't see how that question would or should hing on Sam Beeler's personal identity ."
 
His personal identity does not hinge on the Sand Hill Indians being recognized by the Federal or State government.  It does hinge, in part, on whether or not the Sand Hill Indians are really Indians.  They are, and he is.


"One thing I do see about Sam Beeler that makes me wonder is that he has repeatedly choosen to support  people and groups that other people in larger culturally stronger communities seem to feel are behaving in ways that are exploitive and degrading to Cherokee culture."
 
Please give me the name of one traditional Keetoowah who says this.  Thus far, all I've seen is the statements of Cherokee Christians!
  

"I am reffering to Sam's relationships with Jane Ely , Medicine Crow , and intertwining the Sand Hill bands cultural history with the Nuyagi Keetowah and Ray Harrell and the SECCI

The thread on Jane Ely

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1668.0

Medicine Crow

http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=1489&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=
asc&highlight=%3Cbr%20/%3Esand+hill+beeler "
 
On this, I will say only this (and they are my thoughts, alone):  Go to war for your country.  Suffer some severely debilitating injuries.  Live in constant pain.  Find little or no relief for that pain from the orthodox medical community.  Then, see what alternative medicine practices you'll try and who you'll "associate with."      
 

"As there is supposedly only a handfull of members of the Sand Hill band who are involved in this group why does this Sand Hill bands webpage seem to put so much emphasis on being connected with the Nuyagi Keetowah ? Am I wrong in interpreting this as Sam Beelers influence?"
 
You are not wrong about that, but I'm not going to be drawn into too much of a discussion about the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society.  If you want to post that old thread about it, go for it.  When that thread was here, I was able to get Sam Beeler to answer your questions.  I'm not going to bother being a go-between again.  


"I could say quite a bit more than I have about some of the people involved in the Nuyagi Keetowah , but as it gets into some peoples personal histories I don't like to unless I am really sure this is being used to mislead the public. I'm not sure about that, but i have seen enough to feel there is probably good reason why spokes people for the CNO have spoken out against this group."
 
You "could say quite a bit more"?  While you're at it, why don't you tell us what you know about Rachel Sequoyah, Myrtle Driver, Rick Bird, Kay Walkingstick, Lloyd Owl, Sedan Foster, Eli Pumpkin, Lon Murphy, William Webber, William Lee Smith, Andrew Dreadfulwater, Leon Miller, Archie Sam, William Tallfeather, and Henderson Climbingbear?  Tell us how phony these members of the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society were or are.  
    

"Seeing some of the people Sam Beeler is involved with , he seems to be acting more like a lot of PODIAs who have lost the cultural understanding that comes from being a part of a strong community which has retained it's culture. Maybe there is some reasons behind this which I don't understand, but on the face of it it looks like a problem, at least in the opinion of some people who don't like to see their culture corrupted."
 
I just named more than a dozen enrolled Cherokee people that Sam Beeler has been "involved with" in the NKS.  Who are these people who are seeing "their culture" corrupted?  So far, I haven't seen any remarks by anybody but Christians!  
 
 
"Whether or not Sam Beeler is an American Indian or a good man, seems to be kind of beside the point."
 
It may be beside the point you are trying to make.  It is not beside the point, to me.
 


"Another reason i haven't posted in this thread is when Shakaakwus was posting here a couple years ago they began a thread in the non frauds section on the Sand Hills band and when these same questions came up , they got upset and deleted all their posts and the entire thread with everyone elses posts."
 
It was in my power to delete that thread, and I did.  As explained, then, I wasn't going to have the topic of the Sand Hill Indians diverted to a Nuyagi Keetoowah Society thread.  
 
 
      "( People can't do this any longer since then ) I didn't feel that was a fair or respectful thing to do, and I don't feel like going through this again . I did save most of that old thread and couid repost it if anyone wants the info that was removed ..."
 
I would simply hope that you don't post it on this thread.  Isn't there a NKS thread where you could rehash that?


"I get tired arguing with people ...."
 
Me too.

(edited to correct "William Tallfeather," originally written as "William Feather")

[Moma_porcupine]

You mentioned the Sand Hill band isn't listed by the Cherokee task force as a fraud.

However Sam Beelers version of the Sand Hill bands website points to a close cultural and historical affiliation with the Nuyagi Keetoowah and the CNO task force  does include the Nuy Keetoowah Inc of NY on it's fraudulent groups list.   

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:7N5X_sDoUhkJ:taskforce.cherokee.org/LinkClick.aspx%3Ffileticket%3Dvq4J90gQMtc%
253D%26tabid%3D106%26mid%3D2118+%22nuy+keetowah%22&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca


It seems exceedingly disrespectful to defend Sam Beelers choice in associates by dismissing the opinion of Cherokee people such as Wyman Kirk and Richard Allan. They are obviously working hard to protect their Cherokee identities and culture. That you would attempt to undermine their ability to do this by claiming their opinions are "Christian" is really offensive to me.

You listed Rachel Sequoyah, Myrtle Driver, Rick Bird, Kay Walkingstick, Lloyd Owl, Sedan Foster, Eli Pumpkin, Lon Murphy, William Webber, William Lee Smith, Andrew Dreadfulwater, Leon Miller, Archie Sam, William Feather, and Henderson Climbingbear. I don't know who these people are , or if they were ever truely supportive of the Nuyagi keetoowah as claimed, but I got the impression most of them passed on long before Sam Beeler's time.

Which of these people you named are currently involved in supporting the Nuyagi Keetoowah which does appear to be strongly associated with Sam Beelers version of the Sand Hill's history and identity ?

The way you brush off the cultural distortions being created by Sam Beelers associates only suggests you are not aware of the value of maintaining real cultural practices and the damage done when these practices are corrupted and exploited. As a non native and non Cherokee person, I don't think you have any right to decide this isn't important and to dismiss the feelings of the Cherokee people who find this offensive and have said so

When it comes to Sam beelers identity as an NDN you say "Guessing" isn't good enough for me. "

Instead of the Sand Hill website having all that information about their Nuyagi Keetoowah roots maybe they could put their members lines of descent and their families history and how this connects with what they are claiming is the present day Sand hill band - some of whom sound like they don't recognize Beeler's claims at all.

Without that information all anyone without it can do is guess. And yes I am just guessing that Sam Beeler is NDN - mostly because i seem to remember someone from the CNO saying he was enrolled in the CNO . I suppose as it's the CNO that doesn't mean he is what some people would consider 'really an NDN " and it could mean he is nothing more than a distant descendant who is also enrolled.

[shkaakwus]

M-P writes:
 
"You mentioned the Sand Hill band isn't listed by the Cherokee task force as a fraud."
 
Yes.  After wolfhawaii stated, incorrectly, that they were so listed.
 

"However Sam Beelers version of the Sand Hill bands website points to a close cultural and historical affiliation with the Nuyagi Keetoowah and the CNO task force  does include the Nuy Keetoowah Inc of NY on it's fraudulent groups list."
 
Yes.  I didn't say they didn't.


"It seems exceedingly disrespectful to defend Sam Beelers choice in associates by dismissing the opinion of Cherokee people such as Wyman Kirk and Richard Allan."
 
Why?  Do you know Wyman Kirk and Richard Allen?  Do you know who their "associates" are?  I'm one up on you.  I know Sam Beeler.
 
 
"They are obviously working hard to protect their Cherokee identities and culture."
 
All that's "obvious," to me, is that they've compiled a list of groups that are not CNO, EBC or UKB, and branded them all as frauds.  I sincerely doubt that they've actually met with or done any serious research on the historical background of any of these groups.  I imagine they're right 90% of the time, but you or I could compile the same, or a longer, list, just by googling "Cherokee" on our computers!
 
 
"That you would attempt to undermine their ability to do this by claiming their opinions are "Christian" is really offensive to me."
 
I'm not "undermining" anybody's ability to do or say anything they wish.  The Nuyagi Keetoowah Society was begun in 1928, by a group of traditionalist Cherokee living in the New York/New Jersey area--LONG before what you're calling "cultural protection" began.  In fact, formation of the NKS was done, specifically, to preserve and protect Cherokee traditional religious practices in the "diaspora."  I really can't worry about what an anonymous poster, who may simply be another phony or Wannabe herself (or himself), for all we know, finds "really offensive."


"You listed Rachel Sequoyah, Myrtle Driver, Rick Bird, Kay Walkingstick, Lloyd Owl, Sedan Foster, Eli Pumpkin, Lon Murphy, William Webber, William Lee Smith, Andrew Dreadfulwater, Leon Miller, Archie Sam, William Feather, and Henderson Climbingbear. I don't know who these people are , or if they were ever truely supportive of the Nuyagi keetoowah as claimed, but I got the impression most of them passed on long before Sam Beeler's time."
 
Well...  I can tell you that some are founders of NKS, some joined at a later date, and most were personally associated with Sam Beeler during his early (and later) membership in the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society.  


"Which of these people you named are currently involved in supporting the Nuyagi Keetoowah which does appear to be strongly associated with Sam Beelers version of the Sand Hill's history and identity ?"
 
None of the people I named were or are Sand Hill Indians.  They're enrolled Cherokee Indians.  What you are calling "Sam Beelers version of the Sand Hill's history and identity" is Sam Beeler's history and identity--as an enrolled Cherokee, and as a certified member of the Sand Hill Indians.  It's what he knows from his life's experience.  He's not a professional academic historian!  The primary purpose of introducing the information on the NKS, in his Sand Hill Indian website, as I understand it, was to show that traditional Cherokee people (the NKS) recognize the Sand Hill Indians as Cherokee descendants.


"The way you brush off the cultural distortions being created by Sam Beelers associates only suggests you are not aware of the value of maintaining real cultural practices and the damage done when these practices are corrupted and exploited."
 
I have a body of work in fighting and exposing phonies and Wannabes, spanning years, that I'll match against yours, any day.  
 
 
"As a non native and non Cherokee person, I don't think you have any right to decide this isn't important and to dismiss the feelings of the Cherokee people who find this offensive and have said so"
 
Two members of CNO officialdom does not = "the Cherokee people."  Sam Beeler and those folks I listed as NKS members are also "the Cherokee people."  


"When it comes to Sam beelers identity as an NDN you say "Guessing" isn't good enough for me. "
 
Okay.


"Instead of the Sand Hill website having all that information about their Nuyagi Keetoowah roots maybe they could put their members lines of descent and their families history and how this connects with what they are claiming is the present day Sand hill band - some of whom sound like they don't recognize Beeler's claims at all."
 
I suppose they'll decide what is or isn't important information to give out to the public.  There is plenty enough information elsewhere on the web to support their claims to being Sand Hill Indians--including Jim Revey's signed certifications for Sam Beeler and his mother.  


"Without that information all anyone without it can do is guess. And yes I am just guessing that Sam Beeler is NDN - mostly because i seem to remember someone from the CNO saying he was enrolled in the CNO "
 
"Someone from the CNO" said so?  It was Wyman Kirk, whose opinion on every other matter you seem to take as definitive!
 
 
I suppose as it's the CNO that doesn't mean he is what some people would consider 'really an NDN " and it could mean he is nothing more than a distant descendant who is also enrolled."
 
That's correct.  It "could mean" that, hypothetically, to someone with no more knowledge of his background than that he's enrolled CNO.
 
 
(edited to say, "William Feather" should be "William Tallfeather")

[tachia]

When that thread was here, I was able to get Sam Beeler to answer your questions.  I'm not going to bother being a go-between again. 


Quote from moma p in the same post .. and your answer .. ..
"I get tired arguing with people ...."
 
Me too.

(i have been reading this, and i, like moma p and others, simply do not see the point)
first: see bold above .. you are in here being a "go-between", why is sam beeler not in here answering for himself? .. .. .. i say this because i have a problem when others attempt to answer for someone, i feel that person/s should answer for themselves .. ..

second: if you get tired of arguing with people then why are you persisting in thisargument??

sorry, i am just trying to make some sort of sense of this, trying to find the point in it .. .. .. .. ..

[shkaakwus]

Since I don't know what point it is that you don't see, there's not much I can say about it.

No.  I am not here as a "go-between" for Sam Beeler.  I'm here because wolfhawaii specifically asked for me, by name, to come here and comment on the things discussed in this thread.  You'd know that if you had actually bothered to read this thread, instead of jumping in, just now.  Sam Beeler doesn't own a computer, and is, so far as I know, completely unaware that this discussion is taking place.  You'd also know this if you had actually bothered to read this thread, instead of jumping in, just now.  I am not "answering for" Sam Beeler.  I'm answering questions put to me.

Why didn't you ask Moma_Porcupine why she is "persisting in this argument," instead of me, since she was the first to say she's getting tired of arguing with people?  Your bias is showing. 

Sorry for your confusion and inability to make sense out of this.  I hope you get better.    

[kosowith]

I just came across a document that was given to me a number of years ago. (probably about 10 years ago) But it seems relevant as it includes Sam Beeler's name. I guess it could also be a thread of its own, since there are others on the list that have been discussed here, but as I state below I don't feel it is appropriate to  post the whole list.  Perhaps if there are questions about a specific state, group or person I can post that.

In 1993, then Primary Chief Wilma Mankiller wrote letters of concern to the BIA and a number of state governments protesting the number of groups that are illegally claiming to be “Cherokee.” The research and documentation of this was done by two well known and highly respected members of the CNO and a CNO student doing her master’s research on the development of the CNO government.  As I do not have their permission to post this in it’s entirely and because it is my understanding that this will be published in book form one of these days I have only cut some interesting names and groups to post here.  This list is over 15 years old and therefore many of these people may be gone now, but some continue to appear in these discussions. 

I did not create this list and I personally do not know any of these groups or people and can not comment on their activities, other than I absolutely respect the leaders who have placed this on this list.

** The term “Free Cherokee” appears in 32 different states from Alaska to Washington State, and these are all listed as non-recognized by the CNO, KBC, or EBC.

Also, many of the “Free Cherokee” list in their titles specific Cherokee “Clans” and bands  – ie: spider clan, Pine Tree Clan, Eagle Bear clan, turtle clan, humming bird clan, panther clan,  Dung Beetle Clan, wolf band, Green Mountain Band, Tennessee River Band, Five Nations Band, Della White Cloud Band, White River Band, Osprey Band, Star Hawk Band, Dogwood Band, Arkansas Bear Tribe Band,  Good Medicine Band, Eagle Bear Band, Wild Potato Band, Coyote Band, Star seeker

Indian Names people have listed include: Chief Rainbow Newmoon Shootingstar, Night Owl Smith-Talking Stick Carrier, Red Moon Song, Grandmother Speaks, Tsali Standing Bear-Cherokee Nation of Texas Medicineman and spiritual leader,  M. RedHawk-Keeper of the Wind, War Eagle, Chief Blue Flame Moon Wolk, Chief Shining Bear Fur, Chief Little Bird on His shoulder, Swift Hawk, Leaping Deer Rains – Clanmother, Chief Morning Star, Wind Eagle-tribal elder, Chief Sundown, Shield Wolf, Young Bear, Gater, Chief Sun Hawk,
Chief Harvest Moon, Brave Bear. Chief Touches the Earth, Chief Whitefeather, Chief Medicine Bearman, Star Dancer, Chief Dove, Brave Bear, Distant Eagle, Chief Spirit Woman, Chief Quiet Man, Chief Singing Waters, Chief Yellow Fawn, Red Bear, Chief Time Walker, Chief Lone Wolf, Princess Che’Kee, Chief Lone Oak, Water Woman, Chief Lightfoot, Sings Alone, Chief Bloody Shirt, Principal Chief Rattlesnake, Assistant Chief Red Bear, Strawberry, Chief Graywolf, Rainbow Walker, Principal Chief Silver Fox, Chief Dark Wind, Chief Crazy Wolf, Chief Wounded Eagle, Chief Turtle Hatching, Snake Redhawk, Walking Bear. Chief Dancing Crane, Pathfinder, Walks-far-wolf, Chief Black Eagle, Falling Star,  Fire Eyes, Chief Shadowwalker, Whitefeather Dove, Grey Eagle, Seven Hawks, Bear Who Walks Softly, Sitting Wolf, Chief Harvest Moon,

Some also just use their names and titles : Jim Groves, Medicine Man, Amonsoquath Tribe of Cherokee of Ashland MO.

Some are in a class of their own – for example -

Court of the Golden Eagle* Aka His Royal and Imperial Majesty, The Oukah, Emperor of Tsalagi (The Kingdom of Paradise), King of the Upper Cherokees, King of the Middle Cherokees, King of the Lower Cherokees, Keeper of the Ancient Traditions and the Supreme God of the Sun, Aka Donald Robinson, Dallas, TX

Chief Henry Clayton, NATO Nation, Ft. Worth, Texas - According to the Dallas Observer, NATO is an acronym for Native American Tribal Organization. The group consists of four members who have bestowed titles on one another. They are Henry Clayton; his older brother, Gil Clayton; Kerry Cartier; and, Ted McGeehee. Clayton claims "to be part Cherokee,
Choctaw, Creek, and Comanche

[shkaakwus]

kosowith:

I don't know any of these people.  I've never heard of any of them, unless "Principal Chief Rattlesnake" is that guy, William Jackson, who used to head the SECCI.  Except for that organization, which we've already acknowledged Sam Beeler's participation in, at one time, none of these people and organizations have any more to do with Sam Beeler than they do with Wilma Mankiller.       

[kosowith]

As I stated in my opening this could be a separate thread as it is NON-recognized people and groups across the US that the CNO, KBC and EBC publically state are not members, or affiliated with them.  I stated that the list includes many groups calling themselves "Free Cherokee" and that the Free Cherokee are found in 32 state from Alaska to Washington state. I also mentioned that this is an old list that was comisioned when Former Principal Chief Mankiller was in office.  I did not state that they were all affliated or associated with Mr. Beeler. I amnot sure where you got that.  What I did state is that Mr. Beeler was on this list. 

The person going by Rattlesnake is in fact a William "Rattlesnake" Jackson, Principal Chief (when this list was compiled) also listed are Red Bear Smith, Assistant Principal Chief. Mary "Strawberry" Jackson, Secretary/Treasurer
Vivian "Panther" Lawson, Assistnat Principal Chief, Southeastern Cherokee Confederacy
Ochlocknee, GA  (phone numbers and addresses removed)

I do not know any of these people and that is why I didn't list all of their names and addresses. I am not showing an association between them other than they are, including me Beeler, all listed as non-enrolled frauds by the CNO, KBC and EBC.

[educatedindian]

There's quite a bit of things we need to look at in that list. The Free Cherokee have been discussed before, as has the so called Oukah, the would be emperor. But those other names and groups mostly have not been touched.

Could you cut and paste your post and start a new thread with it? I could do it, but not without giving the false impression that your words are mine.

Then if you want you can remove anything in your posts no relevant to the discussion on Beeler.

I wish I could get hold of that MA thesis, but there's no way to get it here overseas. If anyone can get it, please let us know.

Also if you could send any of that document to me, I'd appreciate it. None of it will be posted, just be used to give me an idea of what to research.

[shkaakwus]

kosowith writes:
 
"As I stated in my opening this could be a separate thread as it is NON-recognized people and groups across the US that the CNO, KBC and EBC publically state are not members, or affiliated with them." 
 
You made no statement, in your first post, regarding "NON-recognized people."  Only organizations were so designated.  Since "people," as in "individuals," are not granted recognition, that wouldn't make any sense, anyway.  Nor did you say, in your first post, that all the individuals named were said to be non-members of the CNO, UKB or EBC."     
 
 
"I stated that the list includes many groups calling themselves "Free Cherokee" and that the Free Cherokee are found in 32 state from Alaska to Washington state. I also mentioned that this is an old list that was comisioned when Former Principal Chief Mankiller was in office.  I did not state that they were all affliated or associated with Mr. Beeler. I amnot sure where you got that.  What I did state is that Mr. Beeler was on this list."
 
That's right.  You didn't state "that they were all affiliated or associated with Mr. Beeler."  And, I made it clear to readers that NONE of them were affiliated or associated with Mr. Beeler, except for those who may have been in the SECCI--which had been previously stated, in this thread.  I am not sure where you got that I got that from you.


"The person going by Rattlesnake is in fact a William "Rattlesnake" Jackson, Principal Chief (when this list was compiled) also listed are Red Bear Smith, Assistant Principal Chief. Mary "Strawberry" Jackson, Secretary/Treasurer
Vivian "Panther" Lawson, Assistnat Principal Chief, Southeastern Cherokee Confederacy
Ochlocknee, GA  (phone numbers and addresses removed)"
 
Okay.  Nothing new, here.


"I do not know any of these people and that is why I didn't list all of their names and addresses. I am not showing an association between them other than they are, including me Beeler, all listed as non-enrolled frauds by the CNO, KBC and EBC."
 
You did not say that the list said everybody named was stated to be "non-enrolled."  Can you quote the exact language where it says that?  That might be helpful.
 
 

[Moma_porcupine]

Do you know Wyman Kirk and Richard Allen?  Do you know who their "associates" are? 

When someone emailed the CNO tribal government a question about the Nuyagi Ketoowah the CNO directed their question to Wyman Kirk and Richard Allen.

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=157.15

See Reply #19 Reply #23 Reply #30

Though I know you disagree with this, you need to accept that I attribute a lot more authority on Cherokee matters to the Cherokee tribal government and the people they select to speak for them than I attribute to you.

Why didn't you ask Moma_Porcupine why she is "persisting in this argument," instead of me, since she was the first to say she's getting tired of arguing with people? 

I'll answer that .

Because I don't like to see people with some eroded bits and peices of Cherokee culture or heritage thinking they know better than the leaders selected within the Cherokee community when it comes to protecting their culture and identity from exploiters. 

Over and over I read people creating all these arguements to try and justify their belief that they and their motely PODIA friends should have just as much right to define what is acceptable within Cherokee culture as the culturally strong Cherokee communities and Elders within those communities .

I repeatedly hear the legitimate Cherokee spokes people who stand in the way of these peoples sense of entitlement dismissed as "Christians" or government collaberators.

I think the Nuyagi Keetoowah is relevent to Sam Beeler, because it looks like the website representing Beelers understanding of the Sand Hill band's history and culture is using the Nuyagi Keetoowah to validate these claims.

A great example of how unreal , dishonest and disrespectful these arguements are, that try to dismiss members of the CNO as Church and government collaborators, can be seen by taking a closer look at Ray Evens Harrell who claims to be the High Medicine priest of the Nuyagi Keetowah.

I have posted the details in Reply #100 in the link below

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=157.90

Reply #30

So, it's not important to know whether or not somebody who presents himself as an American Indian is, in fact, an American Indian?  It is to me.

If that's true I'm sure you will think it's important to check out the claims of some of the people behind the organization Beeler seems to be using to support some of his claims.

[kosowith]

I was trying to be nice, guess that was wasted.  I agree That Richard Allen or Lee Fleming would be absolutely the best place to go for verification of these groups and people - I used both because the list I have shows first the name of the group - for example,
The Free Cherokees, Snake Band, Chief Singing Waters, (address and phone numbers removed) Oakville, CT 06797 -

or Tehlaki Croatan Nation - Dr. Leslie P. Panchula aka Princess Che'Kee. (address and phone numbers removed) Pompano Beach, FL
(claims to be descended from an ancient Cherokee Band that time and other Cherokees have forgotten

Exact wording on the original is - "The Cherokee Nation, the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokees and the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians are the only Cherokee people who have maintained an historic and legal relationship with the federal government. The following Individuals and entities who are incorporating identification as Cherokee within their organization title or otherwise style themselves as Cherokee are not recognized ligetimate Cherokee organizations, tribal entities or individuals."

It would seem that if some of these people are enrolled they have placed themselves in an uncomfortable relationship with their Nations of enrollment

[shkaakwus]

"Trying to be nice"?  No.  You listed a whole bunch of nutjobs in an attempt to link them, in people's minds, with Sam Beeler--even though they had nothing to do with him (the subject of this thread).  So, these folks say Sam is not enrolled?  I guess somebody in CNO country doesn't know what they're talking about.  Wonder who? 

[shkaakwus]

Moma_Porcupine writes:

"When someone emailed the CNO tribal government a question about the Nuyagi Ketoowah the CNO directed their question to Wyman Kirk and Richard Allen.

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=157.15

See Reply #19 Reply #23 Reply #30"
 
 I recall that that "someone" was Joseph SWM, the enrolled Eastern Band Cherokee fellow, who was your good buddy on here, at that time.  As anyone who was here, at that time, knows, he and I were continually at odds.  In the end, he (unlike you) actually attended a Nuyagi Keetoowah Society gathering and remarked how good and traditional and well-run the entire event was! [Childish remarks removed]
 

"Though I know you disagree with this, you need to accept that I attribute a lot more authority on Cherokee matters to the Cherokee tribal government and the people they select to speak for them than I attribute to you."
 
I should hope so!  Similarly, I attribute a lot more authority on Cherokee matters to actual Cherokees, like Sam Beeler, than I attribute to you (whoever you are). 

 
"Quote
Why didn't you ask Moma_Porcupine why she is "persisting in this argument," instead of me, since she was the first to say she's getting tired of arguing with people? 

I'll answer that .

"Because I don't like to see people with some eroded bits and peices of Cherokee culture or heritage thinking they know better than the leaders selected within the Cherokee community when it comes to protecting their culture and identity from exploiters."
 
Just exactly how do people "exploit" their own culture and identity?  Sam Beeler's mentor and tutor and spiritual advisor was Danawa Destoti (William Webber), enrolled Cherokee traditionalist from Oklahoma (born in Gore, Indian Territory), who was a founder of the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society! 


"Over and over I read people creating all these arguements to try and justify their belief that they and their motely PODIA friends should have just as much right to define what is acceptable within Cherokee culture as the culturally strong Cherokee communities and Elders within those communities "
 
I doubt that.  [Personal attack removed] The CNO is a tribe made up mainly of PODIA's, as you like to call other people.  (And, I say this knowing that there are thousands of real high BQ Indians in the CNO, living in or near their historic national territory--which fact gives it its legitimacy.)  There is no argument.  The Sand Hill Indians are who they say they are.  I suggest you peruse the blibliography of scholarly sources I've provided at the Woodland Indians Forum, regarding the Sand Hill Indians; as well as all the threads concerning them, at that site.  If you can't tell the difference between an American Indian and what you, disdainfully, call a "PODIA," I can't help you.  Maybe, others will actually study the matter, rather than making wild accusations.


"I repeatedly hear the legitimate Cherokee spokes people who stand in the way of these peoples sense of entitlement dismissed as "Christians" or government collaberators."
 
Where did I call these people "government collaborators"?  You're getting carried away.  I have nothing against "Christians."  I am one!  (As are most Sand Hill Indians, BTW.)  I simply pointed out that you have not consulted with any traditional religionists who know who the Sand Hill Indians are, or who have been to a NKS gathering.   


"I think the Nuyagi Keetoowah is relevent to Sam Beeler, because it looks like the website representing Beelers understanding of the Sand Hill band's history and culture is using the Nuyagi Keetoowah to validate these claims."

To validate what claims?  If you mean that it's there to provide a traditionalist religious society's acknowledgment of the Sand Hill Indians, you don't have to "think" that.  I already said that!   

 
"Quote
So, it's not important to know whether or not somebody who presents himself as an American Indian is, in fact, an American Indian?  It is to me.

If that's true I'm sure you will think it's important to check out the claims of some of the people behind the organization Beeler seems to be using to support some of his claims."
 
You think wrongly.  I know who Sam Beeler is.  He's a Sand Hill Indian of New Jersey.  [Sidetrack removed]
 

 

[Moma_porcupine]

shkaakwus
referring to Joseph SWM,

In the end, he (unlike you) actually attended a Nuyagi Keetoowah Society gathering and remarked how good and traditional and well-run the entire event was!

It seems you pick and choose what you want to listen to .

I trust the opinions of the people Joseph was reffered to through the CNO tribal government over Joseph's opinion.  I have no idea who Joseph is but having seen him participating here and also advertising Cherokee healing for $50 an hour I see no reason to assume he would know or care if something was off.

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1003.0

Oh and BTW Joseph was just someone who posted here. I never considered him a "buddy".

shkaakwus

Just exactly how do people "exploit" their own culture and identity? 

Thats like asking how could a European possibly exploit and contaminate one of their own rivers? individuals misusing collectively owned resources is a common problem.

shkaakwus

You think wrongly.  I know who Sam Beeler is.  He's a Sand Hill Indian of New Jersey.

I believe you that Sam Beeler is of Indian descent of sufficent degree to be considered an Indian of both the Sand Hill band and the CNO , but i don't believe that that means he can do no wrong or support no wrong doing.

I don't understand why you are so passionate about defending your friend from any mildly critical comment. I guess that is your right to do so, but trying to discuss this seems like a waste of both of our time.

I hope you won't mind if I don't continue to refute what looks to me to be your falacious arguments point by point. I'm sure if I do, you can easily come up with more. I've already said what I think needs to be said, and I'm sure you will be happy to hear I know very little as to the specific details of this situation.

As a matter of principle , I will always choose to support the definitions explained by spokes people in the tribes that were culturally strong enough to have always been visible and recognized  ...